Kajukenbo Cafe

History => Kajukenbo's Extended Family => Topic started by: robc on April 24, 2005, 09:27:25 PM

Title: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: robc on April 24, 2005, 09:27:25 PM
Greetings,

Does anyone know of any kajukenbo-related arts that no longer teach forms?  I am only aware of Mr. Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo as a related art that has done away with forms/kata.  Any others?

Regards,

Rob C.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Enfemus on November 11, 2005, 01:33:35 PM
I don't know of any.... :-\
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Sifu Sin Bin on November 16, 2005, 06:40:28 PM
Then why answer?
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: lairkenpo on January 04, 2006, 01:16:05 PM
Aloha!

Sorry to wait so long to respond to this question, but I just got the chance to sit down to The Cafe (down-time due to illness).

My school no longer teaches forms/katas to the under-belts, but resumes the teaching of the basic katas when a student reaches Brown Belt (5-to-6 years training), in order to prepare them for their Black belt Instructor Certification, which is a separate rank in our school. Confusing to the uninitiated, but we differentiate between a "Black Belt" and a "Black Belt Instructor".

We do teach some standardized punching, kicking, punch-kick, knee, elbow, and flow (from one empty-hand weapon to another) drills that are practiced against impact equipment (focus gloves, Thai pads, heavy bag, air shield, etc). These are the methods used to teach basic techniques in our school, and these drills take up over 65% of our training curriculum time. The majority of the rest of the time is training with partners to learn to apply these same techniques in simulated real-life scenarioes. However, you can only make this training so realistic. It's not realistic, nor prudent, to beat the living hell out your training partners in order to find out if your techniques have "substance". Besides, if they survive a training session of "full-contact" street techniques, then your techniques aren't too effective, are they?

This comment does not apply to "sport-style" sparring, including the recent NHB and MMA methods. Uh, even they have restrictions, folks. If you have listened to the teachings of Sijo Emperado and company, all the things you can't do in the "ring", or the "octagon", are the first things you do on the street!

I believe that you can't develop a true punch, kick, or strike by hitting air any more than you can develop your bench press by laying back on a bench, and practicing you bench press motion without using weights. After a lengthy career in law-enforcement, and the training of such personnel, I have found nothing to dissuade my belief (at this time, anyway!).

The katas/forms are necessary to connect us with the history of our art, and the arts that make up what we do. As instructors, it isn't right to water-down what our students are able to offer once they become Instructors. They should teach everything to every student, as our teachers did for us, and allow their students to pick-and-choose their own personal styles. Not every student will become a teacher. Some students need the real-world combat effective training that Kajukenbo has to offer. That's why they chose KJK instead of some other art.That is why I wait to such a late point in their training to introduce the katas. If the student is going to be a teacher, they need to know it all, understand it all, and be able to teach it all, even if they don't personally use it all!

Plagued by injuries at my half-century on this planet, I appreciate the katas more than I did when I was younger. I'm glad that I learned them, and find myself practicing them, from time to time. But, I have to admit, I still prefer hitting things...I'm just not as hot on them hitting me back, as I once was!

Know what I mean?

I hope that this answers your question, and explains why this particular school made the choice it did.

By the way, and however, we are a small, non-commercial dojo that deals primarily with high-risk personnel. They can't very well do a kata when some lunatic is trying to choke the life out of them! But, the defense for said choke IS contained in KJK kata!

And, how cool is that?

Mahalo & Aloha!

Sibok Robert Windle
The Lair Kajukenbo Kenpo
Jonesboro, AR

"Train as you live...Live as you train!"
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: sifutimg on January 04, 2006, 10:01:38 PM
Happy New Year and may all have a breakout year in training.

Forms/Katas hmmmmmm...

When I was a younger student I never understood why we did forms.  As Mr. Windle pointed out kicking and punching air didn't make much sense to me.  However at this point in my training/teaching and thinking about mind, body, and spirit integration I am an advocate of forms/kata practice definitely.  Why???? Although doing rounds, pounding each other, drills, and whatever else we all practice I haven't found a better exercise to connect the mind and body.  In forms practice you have to control finger tip to toe tip.  How many instructors out there who have taught forms have witnessed a student who while executing a punch say with the right hand watched the left hand float with no connection to the body at ALL?  Now while engaged in sparring and different exercises and drills that have a faster tempo in execution have you witnessed the same phenomena?  Not as much in my experience (maybe I need to work harder here).  I fell it's because of the speed and what the eye can perceive as instructors that we may miss such phenomena in our students.  My purpose of forms practice is to connect the mind and body having our being connect and control without fail every aspect of movement, drill, or exercise.  To this day I have not found a better exercise for a student to practice or an instructor to monitor a student’s ability for this connection.  This connection in my humble opinion is to extend the intention of movement, control, and ability into our various techniques.  Not just our techniques that go out but also the tools that are covering areas defensively and are in preparation to execute offensively.  Again I remember watching while sparring (not forms practice now) execute a great jab but their follow up right cross is floating around trying to maintain balance because the feet are moving and absolutely could not be engaged in a follow up fashion.  This was unconscious to the student.  Also as the added benefit as Mr. Windle stated it is truly important to connect with our history and such no doubt about that.  What can be done however is to put a bag in front of forms practice for kicking and punching so you’re not hitting air.  I have posted here previously about what I call the 5 ways of forms.  If anyone is interested I would be happy to email them off line as to what that is as that email is buried somewhere in this forum.  Forms practice IS important although I do respect anyone's opinion and would like to hear pros and the cons of whether to practice them or not.

Peace and happiness,
Sigung Tim Gagnier
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: lairkenpo on January 05, 2006, 06:08:53 PM
Aloha!

I agree wholeheartedly with Sifu Gagnier's response to my letter! Form/Kata always have been, and will always be, an important of any Martial Art program, regardless of whether the individual instructor calls them by that name or not. It takes as much discipline to develop a focus glove drill (with the rear hand carried in the proper position) as it does to develop any of the original Palama Sets. They both become a movement where "proper form" contains all the components of proper body discipline (ie., stance, weight distribution, position of the head, position of the non-striking hand, recoil/retraction, etc.). Therefore, the focus glove drill becomes a kind of "kata", I would guess.

Overall, the important thing to remember is that we're all trying to achieve the same thing ... self-defense skills, body control, self-discipline, and so forth.

I've been training for this art for 38 years, and have seen many different approaches. Kajukenbo is a progressive method of self-defense, and varies from practitioner-to-practitioner, sifu-to-sifu. Sijo Emperado, and the other founding fathers, wanted it to be this way. Try to make something better, just don't forget where you come from!

The rural South is known for its' colorful witticisms, as any Jeff Foxworthy fan will a tell you. I think that one applies here:

"Some of us drive a car, some of us drive a truck, some of us ride a motorcycle; some of us take the highway, some of us take the off-roads; but, basically, we're all trying to get to the same place. We should wish one another luck on the journey!"

Teach the art with a good heart, good purpose, and be true to what this art has to give, and you can't go wrong!

Thank you, Sifu Gagnier!

Mahalo & Aloha!

Robert Windle
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Gints Klimanis on April 23, 2006, 11:17:29 PM
Personally, I am into forms, but I think they should be used in a different manner.

Most forms I have seen seem to be added rather created while the rest of the
program is created.  For example, pretty much every style performs some version
of the Naihanchi kata even though it is not representative of the style.  Perhaps
this inclusion is out of respect for the efforts of our elders, but I think forms should
be used to reinforce the style.  If forms include techniques, body motions and strategies
 that aren't in the core style,  the form seems to be little more than a manly dance that
has it has lost its meaning and context. 

Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: NYKaju on April 24, 2006, 12:13:53 AM
Interesting take Sifu Gagnier, but I must say I see the exact same phenomenon you describe working in a completely different negative fashion. Most traditional kata include the drawing of the hand to chamber (fist upside down underneath the armpit) and I've found that after extensive practice the student could do one hell of a form, but couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. The constant repitition of drawing the hand to chamber brought on bad habits that had to be broken later in the form of drilling and free sparring to stop them from getting punched in the face. Also the concepts of moving from stance to stance are completely unnatural and unlike anything similar to actual combat causing incredibly bad footwork.

Kata is a part of the system of Kempo that I teach, but I find it of the utmost importance to emphasize it as a tool to build focus and discipline in oneself as well as a form of personal moving meditation and physical exercise. Treating it as something which would build good habits for fighting or self defense is something I wouldn't personally recommend.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 18, 2010, 10:46:10 AM
When I teach palamas is explain first that if you can't execute these movements with speed accuracy and balance and these are SET movements that never change, how can you be fast accurate and balanced with someone trying to knock your block off? Forms help A LOT! And many of the movements are found in the techniques we do. My students are amazed when I point out foot work and body mechanics that we use in boxing grappling and self-defense. We use a bow stance in the palamas and we use it when we are defending a takedown, we use a kneeling stance when we do knee on belly or drop a knee on someones head. It was mentioned that we don't or you can't use chambering your hand in a fight, but when fighting for underhooks look where your hand ends up. People chamber their hands all the time in boxing and ufc. Obviously you can't walk around in a horse stand with hands chambered but you don't do that in forms either, you execute a motion and then move to the next. For people who say they only want to hit things, how do you train without a partner or heavybag? You shadowbox right? That's a form of freestlye KATA. Just my point of view tho
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 18, 2010, 01:12:43 PM
i will make this short you have to learn the katas its the foundation you start with and then you build from that if you dont have that your not a true martial arts school. anybody can put a pair of gloves on and hit a bag.

                                     prof. hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ron Baker on February 18, 2010, 01:36:16 PM
When I teach palamas is explain first that if you can't execute these movements with speed accuracy and balance and these are SET movements that never change, how can you be fast accurate and balanced with someone trying to knock your block off? Forms help A LOT! And many of the movements are found in the techniques we do. My students are amazed when I point out foot work and body mechanics that we use in boxing grappling and self-defense. We use a bow stance in the palamas and we use it when we are defending a takedown, we use a kneeling stance when we do knee on belly or drop a knee on someones head.

Well said, Ruben.  It's kinda funny to see the look on students' faces when they realize that the horse stance I'm always barking about, is actually a necessary part of their grab arts.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuKel on February 18, 2010, 01:56:35 PM
I think the most important aspect/purpose of the forms has been overlooked in this conversation.  The forms are a library of knowledge - they are the non-written - universal form of communication used to transfer knowledge on from one generation to the next for thousands of years.

You can relearn a form over and over again and find new meanings each time as your collective knowledge & experience increases.  Some one said earlier in this thread that the fist chambered palm up under the armpit is not practical in fighting.  I disagree - it is very practical if you think of it not necessarily as a load but as a grab that has pulled your adversary off balance and to your center where your simultaneous attack has great power.

The forms are what you make of them and I think this applies equally to the teacher and the student.  I never really cared form them in my early days when I looked at them as simple little dances required to get to my next rank.  But as my current professor has taught me "All the secrets are in the forms" - you just have to open your mind and ask yourself is this punch really a punch or could it be something else.  The one thing I love most in going to seminars and having the privilege of learning from our elders is how they have learned to use knowledge, distraction, deception and the very basics to overcome an adversary's youth, strength and speed.  I think if you go back and look at the forms you'll find it was in there all along - you just weren't seeing at the time because you weren't ready yet.

I like to take small bits and pieces of the forms now and see how many different ways they can be applied - that includes empty handed as well as with weapons in either my hands or my adversary's or both.  I think it makes me a much better fighter - not necessarily in an MMA or competition sort of way but in the way of our roots - Self Defense / Street fighting.

Just my humble opinion and with all do respect.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 19, 2010, 09:28:47 AM
I do not teach forms to my adult class.
I only teach them to the youth class.
Forms may help to improve your balance and to connect you with your inner self.
But they are based on a very specific set of (choreographed) movements
A fight is a living breathing thing and can change again and again at any point
As far as fighting skills go, I personally find no use for the forms.
Sparing is what helps you to improve your fighting skills.
If I get in a fight the last thing you will see me do is go in to a low squatting stance or do a specific set of movements.
If you like forms then train in them, they are fun and offer many positive results.
But I don’t think they are preparing you for a real fighting.
There are many forms champions that would have trouble in the streets.
I know I am stepping on toes but that’s how I feel.
I do not train to be a martial artist, I train to be vicious
If my school is not a martial art school then I don’t know what it is.
Martial art’s is the art of war.
The only thing that matters at the end of the day is what you have in the win column.
As Sigung Jeff said in a different post, we are evolving and so should our knowledge and teaching methods.

I do think the forms should be taught to the youth as a way to keep our roots alive.
Remember that what you read here is just the opinion of others, don’t be insulted and
don’t take the opinions of others as the law of the land.
Greg Harper

Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Patrick Campbell on February 19, 2010, 12:34:21 PM
I do not teach forms to my adult class.
I only teach them to the youth class.

Ditto.

Pat
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 19, 2010, 03:22:30 PM
A jab is also a very specific movement. Its a set movement that cannot be changed otherwise it would cease to be a jab. A cross a kick or anyother movement is set. Its what we do with those specific and set movements that is key. The example I gave in my original post was a bow stance. Watch any UFC fight where a fighter is pressed against the cage and you will see them gain balance and foundation from that stance to avoid being taken down. How many times to we go into bow stance in the palamas? We also shadow box and use fixed and specific techniques. Jab cross hook uppercut. I don't think it makes a fighter more or less vicious if he shadow boxes or does palamas. But again its my point of view.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 19, 2010, 03:27:04 PM
this is the way i ran my classes for thirty years and i never changed these days
mon-tues froms grab arts ect. wed-thr sparing fri. open night  sat open class some students that did not want to spar and they just wanted to do forms they could come on those nights and i had students that did not want to do forms all they wanted was to spar so they only came on those nights but they had option of what day they wanted. and most of my students came to all the classes and i had over 400 students at the time. and i have to agree with harper on one point a lot of top kata people cant fight at all its funny to see them try. and i use to get mad when they would be out there judgeing fights when they cant fight them selfs. my self i use to be one of the top kata guys around in the 80s but i also have a lot of fighting grands to and could put the gloves on with anybody. and thats what makes a true martial artist one that can do all. and if anybody thinks if you get into a fight and your going to start doing a kata on them well!! the katas are the foundation to start from then you build from that. but thats just my opinion and ive been in the martial arts for 40 years!!


                                            prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 19, 2010, 04:20:41 PM
Sorry, I don’t agree with you.
A jab, cross, upper cut, hook, is different every time you use it in a fight.
It is not used the same way over and over.
If it is then there is some angling and foot work missing, and your foe is standing still. 
Working on a strike or stance is not the same as doing a form.
A pre determined pattern of multiple techniques being used in a fight sequence.
(Choreographed) so the hero always wins.

Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 19, 2010, 05:33:03 PM
I understand your point, but as creative people in a creative art we realize (I think) that just as you don't use a jab cross hook in the same way, you don't use pieces of forms in the exact order that you would or in the same application. I've seen many of grandmaster Powells applications to the palamas and I have discovered many as well that apply to MMA or self defense. Same with anyother movement we learn. Its about the concept, not simply repeating or mimicking  what you learn like a mindless machine. Why do people shadow box? Its not real combat. But that's not yhe point of it at all, it to gain the same things you gain from forms.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 19, 2010, 06:14:01 PM
forms are the foundation in a form you have all the punches the pokes the elbow smashes all those thing now in a fight you will not do a form on someone but you will take maybethe punch maybea elbow strike out of it, it just keeps your mind sharp just like a fighter you train hard everyday to be the best some people just like to fight and thats it, and if thats all they want to do thats fine but to be a ture martial artest you need to be able to teach both and when you get your black belt you need to know both. there was a school in the 70s that all there student did was fight no forms and they were good fighter they won a lot of trofys and grands. and i ask one of there black belts why none of them did forms and he said forms we dont know any forms! and i said well how do you move up in rank and his reply was we go by how many trofys we win. now they will win grandchampion but ask your self is that a true black belt???


                                        prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 19, 2010, 06:27:27 PM
I understand and respect your points, I just don't agree with you.
But I think most of those here will agree with you and not me.
thats why they teach the forms at their school.
I am just explaining why I don't, and will not teach forms to adults unless they ask me too.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Tim Vargas on February 19, 2010, 06:41:24 PM
I wonder how those are ranked without *baseline* (forms) knowledge?   I have heard of a few who do not teach forms, so what are your criteria for rank (white to black)?  Is it based on how many fights you win, or how many teeth you lose, or bones are broken in training? 

I see the value in both opinions, regarding the teaching or not teaching of forms and its relation to fighting.  But what is important is the keeping Kajukenbo alive, those *roots*.  If children are taught the *roots* , why are not the adults taught the *roots*?    Since the adults are the ones who are more likely to pass on our art, how can they then teach their child students the forms if they have never learned them?  Its my opinon that the more tradition that is removed, it becomes less than what it was to begin with.   Perhaps Sijo saw the differences of opinions when he set the rule of requiring ALL of those in Kajukenbo to at least know the first Three Palama Sets/Pinians.


Tim
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 19, 2010, 06:45:04 PM
i understand and respect that, thats the way you run your school to each there own.

                                       prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuKel on February 19, 2010, 06:51:32 PM
I agree Ruben - no one in their right mind would fight Kata style - and I didn't think anyone made an argument for doing so.  But as you said the concepts are there; for you take and apply in as many applications as your open mind permits.

I look at the forms as a library of knowledge not all of which I may understand or even like at this point.   My teacher's job is to expose me to all of our system (forms included) not just the parts he remembers or favors - unless he is creating his own branch - then I guess he/she can do whatever he wants.

If my instructor only exposed me to things he/she favored or felt were effective - and then I did the same - and then my students go on to teach and do the same then our art loses a little bit each iteration - unless we all go explore other systems and try to build it back up.  I don't know - maybe it's better that way.  ???  But the more I go to other schools and other style seminars the greater appreciation I have for the things we already do.  Kajukenbo takes a very short, very quick, very direct path to the desired outcome - ending the opponents ability and/or will to fight.

I must admit though, most of my discoveries (light bulb moments) come bass ackwards.  I'll find that something I did worked well in a fight and when I analyze it I see it was a move right out of a form - I just didn't see it for what it was at the time I was doing the forms.  This fuels my curiosity to discover applications for other moves from the forms that seem strange or useless (looking beyond the obvious).  I find many of the light bulb moments for me come not from the individual moves themselves but applications of the transitions between the moves (where most of the "JU" lives).

My point as a Kajukenbo student is - expose me to everything the system has to offer, and I feel the duty of a Kajukenbo instructor is to do just that.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 19, 2010, 07:03:40 PM
your right 100 %

                              prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 19, 2010, 07:36:19 PM
And this is why for years I have told people Like Sijo Emperado, GM Black, GM Sotelo, GM Reyes, GM Kingi, GM Forbach and many others that I am not a martial artist.
I am (just) a fighter.
The ones that teach forms weapons and history are the martial artist’s.
To change the direction of this post I would like to ask a question.
When were the forms developed in Kajukenbo, and why?
The reason I ask is based on things I have heard.

Harper
PS
GM Reyes, I know you are reading (watching) and shaking your head.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: allen73 on February 19, 2010, 08:51:03 PM
GM Harper,

GM Powell posted a great response that I think can answer your question. The topic title is "History of our Kata and Pinyans". Just use search and it will pop up. On a side note the method of Kajukenbo I train in now doesn't include Palamas as part of the cirriculum.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: jeremy tkgit on February 19, 2010, 10:16:33 PM
If some one does not teach forms how do your students know if they are throwing a Kajukenbo reverse punch and not a Shotokan reverse punch?

Jeremy Patterson
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: kfarny on February 19, 2010, 10:25:08 PM
I would just like to say, with no facitiousnes, this is exactly the reason that I come back here every day. I'm glad the Ohana has a place where these discussions can happen, and where we can all teaxh and learn at the same time with an empty cup.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ron Baker on February 20, 2010, 07:29:56 AM
I must admit though, most of my discoveries (light bulb moments) come bass ackwards.  I'll find that something I did worked well in a fight and when I analyze it I see it was a move right out of a form - I just didn't see it for what it was at the time I was doing the forms. 

The proverbial "a-ha" moment.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ron Baker on February 20, 2010, 07:32:11 AM
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but isn't shadow boxing a form of kata?
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: GEORGE LIM on February 20, 2010, 09:33:53 AM
I agree with alot of you and I disagree with alot of you. But I do know that this is a very good discussion that can lead to the improvement of our leadership & teaching.

I teach kata and the traditional technical material from my lineage of Professor Marino Tiwanak CHA-3 but evolved alot of my modern teaching from GM Xizu Abad. I kept the old and added the new for the better of the art and fighting. I believe in the combination of both and apply it to my teaching.

Kata is technical material to learn & practice and how it was taught to me. It is tradition and I hold that for me & my students. Like our traditional schooling, high school & college, you have to learn and do the work to graduate with a diploma. But a degree in business does not make you a good business man and can operate a successful buisness. A person that has no traditional education can have a difficult time attaining higher paid positions.
This is my reasoning for doing & teaching both kata & fighting skills.

Fighting skills to me are survival skills from one on one street fight to multiple attackers. If you want to use them to compete in MMA fights good. If you want to use them for point fighting good. For me, I am not that good so I use them to protect my family & me at all cost including firearm training.

Kata training helps my technical skills and gives me balance & focus. But so does fighting.
Kata gives me a good fitness workout but so does fighting & sparring. I do Gun kata too to help with my breathing & technical skills in firearms.

I see fighters, from UFC, MMA, Cage, Boxers, Muay Thai, doing drills and bag work by themselves. This is their Kata. Even Bruce Lee did Kata but called it something else.

Call it what you will. Do whateva you want to train & teach. But it is all good and you should do it for "real"  with passion & leadership for yourself and your students.

Thank you for allowing me to be involved in this very good conversation about something we ALL love, cherish, & are passionate about. Sijo would love to see all of this methods & styles of teaching & training

Respectfullty,
George Lim
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 20, 2010, 11:23:01 AM
I could not find the post you spoke about.
but to tell the truth I was not seeking an answer for myself.
I know what I was told by Sijo and a few other Grandmasters.
I was asking to see if some of the people that are posting here have heard what I have.
history is a funny thing if you dig into it.
history is what we are told by someone who has written it down.
most of the time those who write it down were never there.
Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 20, 2010, 12:44:58 PM
i dont understand so your saying sijo said dont teach forms?? and i think theres not to many left that were there from the start of kajukenbo.

                          prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 20, 2010, 02:01:04 PM
this was just emailed to me it says it all.


"On 12-17-2007 at 13:55hrs, Sijo read his revised Board of Advisors list and the orders that he told me (Sigung Aiau Koa) to write, after Sijo read it, he told me to read it out loud to him, when I was done he said “yes” that is what I want. At that time he said where’s the pen so he could sign the paper.
at 14:26hrs Sijo signed his revised list of his Board of Advisors.
 
We talk about his words on being creative in Kajukenbo. Sijo said “be creative, but don’t forget the roots of Kajukenbo and where Kajukenbo came from“.
Sijo told me that to help keep his art and memory alive, he directed me to tell the (BOA) that every  (KSDI) members must know Palama 1,2 and 3 because that is the roots.  also to make sure that the Self-Defense Division grows stronger because Kajukenbo is Self-Defense first.  Also to use the word Palama in katas.
 
I ask Sijo if he could have anything he wanted in Kajukenbo what would he want?
He said “ PEACE with everybody in Kajukenbo that is what going to make me really HAPPY”.
I told him, I will try my best to do my part.
 
Sijo looks real tired and his chest sounds congested, but he told me to come back tomorrow and bring some food because he is hungry. I said ok Sijo I then Kiss him on his head and Sijo Saluted me and I did the same Back, then I said Bye. I then left Sijo to sleep @ 1613hrs."
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 20, 2010, 02:52:10 PM
Professor Hemenes,
That’s not what I said.
I did not say that Sijo said not to teach the forms.
And I did not say not to teach the forms.
I only said that I do not teach the forms to adults unless they ask me to.
I am just asking a question about the history of Kajukenbo forms.
Like many of you have said it is nice to have a place where we can talk about these things.
This is only the tip of the ice berg.
We say that we must teach the forms to keep our roots and (history) alive.
So why do we change the original forms as taught by Emperado to what fits us personally.
Everyone who is not doing forms the original Emperado way is just changing history.
If we keep changing history then how will we know the real history?
(HIS- STORY)
I think this is a very good topic.
And the reason I am writing about it is to get us all dialed in as to what we are doing now, and in the future.
After I get an answer to my question I will tell you what Sijo said to me.
But in saying that, remember that Sijo often changed his mind on things.
That is exactly why my certificates say
(Sijo’s revised techniques)
Lets all work together for the future of our art.
Unity is the key

Harper
PS
Professor Hemenes your last post did not answer my question.
it was a statement made in 2007
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 20, 2010, 03:18:01 PM
mr harper whats the question again so its clear to me so i can give you the right answer
if i can.

                                        thanks prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Mitch Powell on February 20, 2010, 04:08:34 PM
Greetings,
I had teachers like GM Shin and GM Bautista who were very good at forms and enjoyed doing them, so because they enjoyed forms training I learned to enjoy it. I still practice my Palama Sets often. When I do, I think of them and Sijo. The forms are my link to the past. Since I like forms, I have done a lot of research over the years trying to understand what forms are, why we have them, and what influence the forms of the past have had on Kajukenbo. Here's a bit of what I've learned:

In the early days of martial arts forms for the most part were your art. The different teachers preserved and developed their art through forms. The forms taught stances, body positions, balance, timing, spatial relationship, developed power, and so forth. But most importantly, the forms contained the different offensive and defensive techniques in their "Families" art. Yes, the "secret techniques" were hidden in the forms. Sometimes the movements were disguised so others could not figure out wat they were doing.

Forms were also developed for specific reasons. A tiger form was created to develop your strength, a crane form for balance and so forth. There was a purpose for each form and forms were often taught in a certain sequence. Once a student mastered a certain form they would then move to the next level of training or the next form. There were no belts, just more to learn and perfect.

Many things over the years have caused great confusion when it comes to forms training. The primary problem stems from people teaching forms to others without teaching what the movements and techniques in the forms are used for or what we call the applications. There are many, many reasons for that so I?ll just mention a few:
?   Students who failed to complete all their training
?   Students who left one family and began training with another
?   Masters who didn?t like or trust a student, so they never taught the applications

As the modern martial arts era developed almost all of the styles that evolved used forms that were originally part of a Chinese or Okinawa system or family art. The problem with that has been the lack of knowledge regarding the applications in the forms. For the most part, that information was never handed down from master to student. What was handed down was a requirement that the student make the form look really good. Then with the advent of karate tournaments, forms really took a hit. In order to get the best score, kata competitors would modify the forms and in doing so changed not only the form but the applications or what the movement was originally used for.  

When Kajukenbo was developed martial arts systems had forms, so Sijo added forms to Kajukenbo. It?s that simple. The forms that were available at the time were the traditional hard line Okinawa and Japanese forms and the softer Chinese forms. Sijo added a little of both. Sometimes he just took a form that everyone knew like the Okinawa form Nai Han Chi (The dance of death) and modified it to meet Kajukenbo?s needs. Other times he used Chinese forms or even chi kung movements like the beginning of Palama Sets 2 and 3 where you punch downward from a horse stance and then draw your fists back up to your chest and strike out?that?s a popular chi kung movement.

The true applications of the movements in most traditional forms are no longer known and really haven?t been for a few hundred years. I think that?s a safe assessment of the forms in Kajukenbo as well. While some of us may understand the movements better than others, I do not believe all of the applications will ever really be known. Heck, I know some teachers who don?t care what the applications are. They just want the student to do the form correctly with intensity and focus.

Personally, I think forms training helps a lot with balance, range of motion, and the flow from one movement to another in regards to self defense. I don't think forms training offers anything in regards to ring-based fighting. With so many schools focusing on developing ring fighters, it only makes sense that forms training would disappear from their curriculums. They need the time to work on other things.  
 
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: allen73 on February 20, 2010, 04:51:36 PM
GM Harper,

Here is the reply that GM Powell posted. I know it's not the answer to the question you posted, but I thought it would give some insight on the Palamas.Mahalo

Palama Set 1:
Just a collection of basic Kajukenbo movements: short outward, downward, short inward, X block, side cover, punch, elbow, short outward, hammer fist groin. Some schools do a side to side cross over in the middle and an ear strike at the end, but those movements were not in the original form from what I was told.

Palama Sets 2 and 3:
These are clearly from the same mold. The double punch downward and counter double strike upward from the horse stance that starts these forms is depicted in Chi Kung exercises. I have also seen these movements, along with the long inward, front ball kick, counter chop combination performed in choy li fut. This is not surprising when one learns Sijo choy li fut connection.

Palama Set 4:
This form was created by Joe Emperado. I do it as a two-man defense. Probably not what Joe Emperado was thinking, but it works great.

Palama Set 5 and 6:
These are the same forms with open hands on one and closed or one closed and one open on the other. The open hand form contains many movements that resemble choy li fut.

Palama 7:
This form was created by Joe Emperado, but never finished. Since Joe Emperado was murdered in 1958, that should tell you how many Kajukenbo forms were developed by 1958. Sijo was still putting the pieces together.

Palama 8:
This is the kicking form. It just contains the basic kicks from Kajukenbo: side, front, back, jumping switch kick, jumping front kick.

Palama 9:
This is the Okinawan form pinan shodan. We just gave it a Kajukenbo flavor.

Palama 10:
This is a combination of 3, 8, 9, 14 and so forth. Just more with Kajukenbo like movements put together.

Palama 11:
This is the Okinawan form naihanchi done with a Kajukenbo flavor. Researches will tell you that this is one of the keys to Mitose’s teaching. Naihanchi dates back as one of the earliest forms adopted by the Okinawans. The Okinawan taught naihanchi 1-3 as the first forms in their system. In 1902, Anko Itosu created pinans 1-5 from the Chinese form “channan.” He then began to teach the pinan forms in the school systems. They caught on and became a mainstay of the Japanese systems. That means if you were trained in a Japanese style after about 1910 you were most likely going to be taught pinan 1-5----Not naihanchi.

Although the Okinawan styles later adopted the pinan forms, many of the old school Okinawan styles or those Okinawans who had already left Japan taught naihanchi as their first form-as Mitose did.

Palama 12:
This form is the form most like bassai dai.

Palama 13:
This is the Okinawan form pinan nidan (pinan shodan in the Japanese system) with a Kajukenbo flavor. The hands strike neck high at the end versus waist high in the Okinawan version.

Palama 14:
This is the clock dance. It contains the most common Kajukenbo movements: horse stances showing the angles of attack and defense (Mitose), upward, outward and inward blocks, front kicks (both sides) horse stance with upward, outward and inward blocks while kicking, and two-handed strikes with counters.

Okinawan arts influenced Kajukenbo as well as choy li fut. Sijo was named National Advisor of choy li fut in 1962 by Chinese Grandmaster Ho Ngua (spelled Ho Ga on many sites). That is a great honor, especially considering Sijo is not Chinese. In 1962 that really meant something. Sijo trained with the Chinese masters and their influence can be found in the techniques as well as forms, especially the later development of Kajukenbo with Ch'uan fa.

When Sijo began teaching he was still developing Kajukenbo. The students who were there were not all taught the same thing the same way. He was very creative and still is. He could create a new art from his wheelchair this afternoon. The man is brilliant. Back to the students, when Sijo was teaching at one school Joe Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Paulie Seronio, Aleju Reyes and others were teaching at the other schools. We all have flavors and depending on who teaches you the most or what way you feel best doing your forms or techniques, that’s how you learn it.

By the way, the word "pinan" that Sijo used for his forms-it's an Okinawan word. The Japanese word is heian. I think the little things can tell us a lot about where things came from.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 20, 2010, 08:23:05 PM
I think its good to change forms (palamas). Change is good and without it there would be no kaju. Sijo took kenpo and changed it and yes it changed history which is a good thing. I've seen some of GM Lims students perform the tiger and crane form and it is slightly different from the way I do it, which it awsome in my opinion because its their flavor and my flavor. But either way it doesn't take away from the benifits of what forms can bring to the table. I can't really see however what it takes away. I've read several people refer to forms competators as unable to fight. I highly doubt that that's the reason they can't fight. Its probably because they CAN'T fight, not because they DO forms.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 20, 2010, 08:44:41 PM

When Kajukenbo was developed martial arts systems had forms, so Sijo added forms to Kajukenbo. It’s that simple.
********************************************************

 That’s what I was looking for.
And what I heard also.
Thank you Grandmaster Powell.
Sijo told me that if he did not put forms in Kajukenbo that it would not be recognized as a  martial art system by others.
If not for that he would not have added them in
So that is why we have forms.
Not because Sijo liked them.
Sijo told me to teach the forms to the children.
And just make sure the adults have the first 3, other than that there is no need for forms.
We can all follow what we feel is right, I am just doing what the founder told me to do.
I will not try to explain his reasons to you as only he could do that properly.
I can not speak for him.
I can only tell you what he told me personally.
The thing is that you did not know that how I teach is exactly how Sijo Adriano D, Emperado told me to teach.
So now to the future, is this a subject we can talk about at the Kajukenbo unity meeting?

I wish you all the best

Greg Harper
Sijo’s revised techniques
 
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 20, 2010, 08:50:11 PM
I'm glad that Sijo said that. I think they serve a great purpose and so did Brother Abe, the lineage I fall under. I'm not trying to say for anyone to change what they do or believe, simply stating that they do serve a purpose that in benificial.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Patrick Campbell on February 20, 2010, 08:58:20 PM
Thanks, GM Harper.

Pat
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 20, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
mr harper if sijo said that thats great but everybody has there own way of teaching and thats fine i dont think theres two many kajukenbo schools out there that will give a student a 1st degree black belt knowing only three forms!

                                        prof. hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 20, 2010, 09:21:28 PM
(I'm glad that Sijo said that. I think they serve a great purpose)
 
Ruben I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Sijo thought Forms served a great purpose.
thats fine if that is what you took from it but that is not what I said.
my point was that if it was up to Sijo he would have left them out.
funny how you can say or write someting and everybody can take a diffferent meaning from it.
I can't add anymore to this subject, so I will leave it in the hands of each of you.

Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 20, 2010, 09:24:41 PM
Professor Hemenes so what should I do?
listen to others now that Sijo is gone or listen to what he told me.
you say that if thats what Sijo said then thats fine but then turn around and question it.

Mr. Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 20, 2010, 10:02:58 PM
mr harper its not personal to you! if thats the way you want to run you school or anybody else thats up to you! you said yourself sijo would say one thing then change it later. i never worked out with him i learned from grand master vargas and grand master gaylord and we alway did all the forms grb arts ect. so i trianed my students the way i learned and my black belts and so on! and i had black belts that did not want to learn the forms but if they wanted there rank they had to learn them or the art will not go on. lot of schools now are doing mma witch is good to learn but they are stoping the forms, becouse its in now and they makeing more money in the school doing mma. i just hate to see some school lose focas. if you can do both thats great!

                                    prof hemenes

p.s im having fun today going back in forth with you! it keeps me on my toes! 
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 20, 2010, 10:18:30 PM
I never once said Sijo said they served a great purpose I said I think they do. If Sijo didn't think the were needed other than 1 2 and 3 then that's fine too. WHATEVA anybody wants to do is fine. We are not bound by what any man says to do on this planet. But that's not and never was my purpose in relpyling to this post. Not to dispute what Sijo wanted or said or anything of the sort, but rather to point out that in my point of view they (forms), be them traditional or shadowboxing, DO serve a valuble purpose. MY point of view.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Danjo on February 21, 2010, 12:26:50 AM

When Kajukenbo was developed martial arts systems had forms, so Sijo added forms to Kajukenbo. It’s that simple.
********************************************************

 That’s what I was looking for.
And what I heard also.
Thank you Grandmaster Powell.
Sijo told me that if he did not put forms in Kajukenbo that it would not be recognized as a  martial art system by others.
If not for that he would not have added them in
So that is why we have forms.
Not because Sijo liked them.
Sijo told me to teach the forms to the children.
And just make sure the adults have the first 3, other than that there is no need for forms.
We can all follow what we feel is right, I am just doing what the founder told me to do.
I will not try to explain his reasons to you as only he could do that properly.
I can not speak for him.
I can only tell you what he told me personally.
The thing is that you did not know that how I teach is exactly how Sijo Adriano D, Emperado told me to teach.
So now to the future, is this a subject we can talk about at the Kajukenbo unity meeting?

I wish you all the best

Greg Harper
Sijo’s revised techniques
 

GM Harper,

Thanks for the posts full of inside information that many of us aren't priveledged to otherwise.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 21, 2010, 04:21:14 AM
Like I said before nothing but love.
we all make our own choice and direction in life.
and who is to say who is wrong or right.
as long as we show respect to each other its fine to disagree.
short of death blows MMA is as close as one will get to a real test.
it will test your fitness, it will test your sack and it will test your skill.
the problem is that few martial artist's have all 3
its been fun, thanks for the tennis game and have a good day.

Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: GM ALAN M. REYES on February 21, 2010, 01:43:06 PM
All positions are correct to your specific teaching or martial training, so,,,,what is correct?
Well I can quote everyone within this thread, and everyone has something to offer... I remember when my Father was a student, at that time the "Chief", would correct him for not having his leg straight or hand not tight enough! Was that knowledge or tuning his fighting skills?..Or this movement or that movment has to be done  this way or that in oder to increase the power of the movemnet, hips turned, leg straight, eyes focused, again was that knowledge or tuning his fighting skills?,,always critizing to make him better, stonger, and later in life "every short that it was" a "GREAT" Instructor, was that again for knowledge or his fighting skill?
Pinans is a way that  students can make themselves better, "without" the Instructor in the immediate area,,as my story earlier wether Emperado was teaching my Father at Palama or at our home. When he left ,,,,there was continous hours trying to accept the concepts that Emperado taught, working on himself or helping to teach me. The knowledge was emmense, the knowledge had to be written verbatim from the man himself, not because of the intensity of the physical training, but the complexity of the physical movements! Put to paper, or 8mm at that point. Whatever the media it was,,because that knowledge could not be trusted to memory alone. Take for instance, #1 Pinan the first 3 movements,,,,Outward Block, Downward Block, Inward Block or "running movements" or for a better word "sequencing"....The Attacker is another Martial Artist,,,moving on you with a punch/kick/punch combination..moving on you in rapid sucession..to a prelude to a rapid takedown!!!Kaj style.... so does that deminsh the form or "story"...no! The form has to be done accurately,stances has to be done correctly, and the intensity of block to strike has to be correct "That's KAJUKENBO!!!!.
It is when you have met the requirements of your particular "method" ie: Emperado Method, Gaylord Method, WHKD,Ramos Method, Halbuna, KMMA... that the knowledge or fighting skills are accomplished. Pinans or forms may or not be important requirement of your "method", it doesn't make it wrong. What is correct that you do everything you're taught, in thought, correctness, aggresiveness and with a thinking and lethal power.
Really good points today, the kowledge is growing,,April gathering is coming soon...
Maybe an analogy could be "KA-JU-KEN-BO" = "A-DAP-TA-TION"
with all due respect
GMReyes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: MARK GERRY on February 21, 2010, 02:16:57 PM
I NEVER LIKED FORMS......I HAD TO LEARN FORMS AT BOB GAYLORD SCHOOL IN THE 1970s, THEN GM JOE HAD HIS OWN FORMS, ALL OF THE TKD GUYS I TRAINED WITH HAD THERE OWN FORMS AND PROFESSOR HEMENES HAD HIS KAJUKENBO FORMS AND GM ERIC LEE HAS A WHOLE LOT OF FORMS HE TEACHS!!!

THE LAST YEAR I HAVE BEEN TRAINING MOSTY THAI .......NEE....ELBOWS....LEG KICKS...AND STREET FIGHTING STUFF.....EYES , GROIN STRIKS AND KICKS. GM HARPER'S WAY...=)

BUT NOW I HAVE GRANDMASTER ERIC LEE LIVEING WITH ME..........WE ARE DOING FORMS EVERY DAY !!! :o

AND PROFESSOR HEMENES HAS BEEN TEACHING CLASS THE LAST FEW WEEKS TOO! :o

WHAT A GREAT TIME FOR ME AND MY STUDENTS........

GM ERIC LEE, PROFESSOR HEMENES, GM MAX PALLEN AND I AR GOING TO PI AND THAILAND FOR A MONTH!!!.....MARCH 18TH 2010....I DONT THINK WE WILL BE DOING FORMS IN THAILAND !!.....LOL
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: sleddog on February 21, 2010, 05:30:30 PM
Actually the Wai Kru and Ram Muay (formal dance/fight preparation) is a kind of form. All Traditional Muay Thai fighters have to do a variation of it before they fight. It pays respect to their school and teacher and is considered poor manners not to do it.

Have fun.

I will be in PI from the February 26th to March 11th for Kali training in Bacolod (Negros Island). Got to be warmer than here.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuKel on February 21, 2010, 06:19:15 PM
Thank you GM Harper, GM Powell and GM Reyes.  Great conversation and I appreciate the collective insight.  This place is always educational.  I hope to meet you all in person someday - I'm sure it will be even more enlightening.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Rich Cruz on February 21, 2010, 08:00:36 PM
Hello everyone, I like this thread, it has been very informative for me,

I have always explained to my students that a martial artist / practitioner MUST establish a foundation and if you look a most of the styles out there, many of the training and conditioning drills are very similar.  To be a very good martial artist you should be well rounded (technician, teacher and a fighter) in my opinion.  Grand Master Bautista once told me that for the most part there are 3 types of martial artists; a technician (forms/kata/technique), teacher (gifted in teaching, able to express/explain things in different ways to get through to the student, patience and understanding) and a fighter (gifted in combat, natural ability enhanced by training, fortitude). Once in a while you will find someone who is good in two of the three mentioned areas, but very rarely you will find someone gifted in all three.  I think if you look at that alone and think for a while on the evolution of martial arts in all aspects of where we are today and how we got here, you will find many answers to the questions discussed in this thread.  I believe in teaching my student all that I have, to include forms (Palamas, Concentrations, and the more traditional Japanese and Chinese forms that we have in our system).  Granted when the student realizes how much there is to learn, when you also add techniques (grab, punch, knife, club, alphabets, step-ins, roll tricks, two man, three man, etc), ground fighting (and how not to stay there), stand up fighting (full contact, point, boxing, multiple attackers, etc), and not to mention the addition of the Philippine stick and knife training, it can often seem overwhelming to the student.  And yes it can be a challenge to the teacher, (just remember the foundation requirements).  I simply remind my students that Martial Arts/Kajukenbo should be more than a short term goal of achieving a black belt, it should be a way of life, something that is truly part of you, and when you keep that in mind you will find that it is a journey that really never ends and should not be limited to one way.  Belt progression may be a slow process but that should not be the primary reason for training.  Everything has a benefit and yes it does take time away from other areas you my like better, but if you look at it through the eyes of someone who is hungry for knowledge and having the desire to continually learn with no end in sight, there is always time to enjoy learning other principals and theories.

V/r Rich
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: GM ALAN M. REYES on February 22, 2010, 05:25:27 PM
To understand your interpretation is pure EMPERADO, as myself, your Insructors has again proven thru their knowledge, your endeavors is a lifelong commiment,I applaud you, and those who came before you.
with all due respect
GMReyes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Danjo on February 24, 2010, 12:14:19 PM
I understand that ther is a tradition of people performing Pians/Palama sets at the funerals of prominant Kajukenbo people. This tradition goes back at least to Joe Emperado as I recall hearing. My question is that if we don't teach the forms, how will this tradition continue? Clearly in this respect, it is more about unity than fighting ability, but still an important part of our heritage I think.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Tim Vargas on February 24, 2010, 12:20:22 PM
I understand that ther is a tradition of people performing Pians/Palama sets at the funerals of prominant Kajukenbo people. This tradition goes back at least to Joe Emperado as I recall hearing. My question is that if we don't teach the forms, how will this tradition continue? Clearly in this respect, it is more about unity than fighting ability, but still an important part of our heritage I think.

If you dont teach the forms that particular tradition WILL DIE!  That is an easy way for a branch/twig to die out fast also. But from what I gather, everyone in KSDI would at least know the first 3.    

Just my opinon.


Tim

P.S. Tradition is like a fine rug that has many strands tightly woven together to serve a purpose.  When one starts to remove this tradition or that tradition, slowly but surely all you will have is a pile of yarn no longer recognizable as a rug  ;)
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Sifu C on February 24, 2010, 06:12:22 PM
Good day!

I have seen Palama Set #11 and one other I can not recall performed at a funeral or at the cemetery site.  Does anyone know why and where this tradition or practice came from?


With my respects,


Sifu C
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: John Bishop on February 24, 2010, 07:27:43 PM
Good day!

I have seen Palama Set #11 and one other I can not recall performed at a funeral or at the cemetery site.  Does anyone know why and where this tradition or practice came from?


With my respects,


Sifu C

From what Sijo told me, Palama Set 11 was developed from the "Naihanchi" kata that Mitose taught.  It was known by all the kenpo people from the Mitose, Chow, Young, and Emperado schools. 
Since it was commonly performed at funerals, it became nick named the "Dance of Death". 
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Mitch Powell on February 24, 2010, 08:28:32 PM
An interesting side note:

The nai han chi kata that we know is but one of three forms in the nai han chi family. Kajukenboists perform a modified version of nai han chi shodan, which means nai han chi form number one. There is also a nidan and a sandan or a number two and number three. The nai han chi katas were very popular in the late 1800's and considered Okinawan in nature--although the form most likely originated in China and found its way to Okinawa through fisherman, land prospectors, etc.

The nai han chi forms were considered a bit too hard to learn, especially for children, so in the early 1900's Master Anko Itosu took a form called Channin and broke it down into five seperate forms, creating five new katas called pinans. The five pinans became very popular and all but replaced the teaching of the nai han chi katas. By 1902, all school children in Japan were taught the new pinan katas and no longer practiced the old Okinawan nai han chi katas. Those pinans are the same katas taught today in all the Japanese and Okinawan styles.

It is said only the old-school Okinawan families continued to teach the nai han chi katas after the creation of the new five pinan katas. That proves very interesting since GGM Mitose taught the nai han chi kata to his students. Only someone influenced by or from the old Okinawan families would have done that. Kajukenbo incorporates both the nai han chi and the pinan katas into its curriculum.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 24, 2010, 09:19:19 PM
Very true about tradition dying. the palamas are like a trademark of the art and if they are not taught then a huge part of the art is lost. If that's the case, take out saluting, titles, rank/belts, uniforms, patches, and all the other things that don't help you fight. But then it wouldn't be kaju, it wouldn't seperate us from other arts, we would just be SPORT mma people. There are pleanty of things we do that do aid in our fighting ability and we don't take those out...
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 24, 2010, 09:24:03 PM
Change that second do to DON'T
:-)
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: John Bishop on February 24, 2010, 10:19:51 PM

It is said only the old-school Okinawan families continued to teach the nai han chi katas after the creation of the new five pinan katas. That proves very interesting since GGM Mitose taught the nai han chi kata to his students. Only someone influenced by or from the old Okinawan families would have done that. Kajukenbo incorporates both the nai han chi and the pinan katas into its curriculum.

Actually, according to Sijo, other then Palama Set 11, our katas were created by him and Joe Emperado from techniques they commonly practiced. 
Sijo adopted the name "Pinan" from a book he had that was written by Mas Oyama.  At the time Sijo did not know the history of the "Pinan" name, and thought it merely meant kata, or form, and was applicable to all Okinawan/Japanese forms.  So following Japanese tradition, Sijo called his katas "Pinans".     
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Tim Vargas on February 24, 2010, 10:40:51 PM
Interesting is that the actual subject is "Extended Family Arts that Aviod Forms", never thought that it would come up that there are some in Kajukenbo who do not think it important to continue to pass on what our founder found prudent to create.  I know of several Kajukenbo schools who are *incorporating* or *adding on* mma (cage style) fighting to their curriculum, but they continue to also teach Kajukenbo (preserving their roots), so nothing wrong with that.  Sijo encouraged growth, learning other arts and using what works, so did GGM Gaylord, but that was just to *enhance* what you have already learned in Kaju.   There are those who went out to learn more Chinese Gung-fu, Muay Thai, DanZanRyu, escrima, boxing, grappling, etc. to enhance, but not to replace Kajukenbo.  In my opinion, as soon as you replace Kajukenbo you become an *extended family* member or *other* art.  Has MMA ONLY style become a *branch* within Kajukenbo?  If so, I havent heard about that, anyone else?  Ofcourse, if it is to become a *style* or *branch* in Kajukenbo, then perhaps there should be a new ranking system, or a non-ranking system.  After all, other branches have adopted *sashes* as grades within their particular methods, or even creating separate classes that offer ranking in those particular systems.   In other words, it wouldnt be fair to all of us who have worked so many years and so hard in learning our systems basics (kajukenbo) to be bypassed by others who do not learn the same basics.  If I were to train in Tae Kwon Do and get a blackbelt, would that make me a blackbelt in Kajukenbo?  I believe the consensus is NO!  Make sense?  

I hope others give their opinons on this important subject.

Thanks.


Tim
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Mitch Powell on February 24, 2010, 10:43:25 PM
Greetings,

There was a time when I believed that we all needed to do Kajukenbo exactly the same way--every technique, every form, everything tradition, everything, and if it wasn't done that way it wasn't right. I often questioned my seniors in an effort to understand why Sijo just didn't say this is how you will do my art. End of story, number one goes like this, numer two goes like that, get on board or ......

Then one day at a seminar as I watched all the great Kajukenbo sigungs, professors and grandmasters teaching and it hit me. They all had their own way of doing Kajukenbo. Each one was excellent, but different. Some were better tacticians, some better strikers, others were better at flow, still others were better at concepts, and so forth. No matter what it was all Kajukenbo.

After more reflection, I realized Sijo knew exactly what he was doing when he created Kajukenbo and allowed it to evolve. Even he didn't want to get stuck on one way only. Kajukenbo is not a Palama Set or a grab art. It's not the original method or tum pai, or chuan fa. Kajukenbo is bigger than all of that. It can be changed and altered and still be Kajukenbo. Just look at us, we are all Kajukenbo but have different ways about us.  

Perhaps it's ok to let things evolve and change. I like tradtion, but I am not afraid of creating my own. GM Bautista created a lot of different traditions at his school. Each one was always unique and meaningful. I remember he would often wear a plain black belt when he trained and then during promotion time where a student would earn their black belt, instead of handing the student a recently purchased belt from the martial arts store, GM B would remove the black belt that he had been wearing and present that belt to the student. It was an amazing honor to receive a belt from him and a great tradition.  

After Sijo died, I decided to start a new tradition at our school. I stopped using the traditional belt snapping ceremony at the beginning and end of class and modified it to honor Sijo. We now snap the belt in front of us and then raise it to the sky in honor of Sijo (He is our spirit, so we now recognize the spirit of Sijo first), then we touch of forehead to honor our mind and then we touch our chest to honor our body. I bet Sijo is ok with that. He gave us Kajukenbo and in return we honor him. Traditions are what we make them out to be.

Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Patrick Campbell on February 24, 2010, 11:06:16 PM
After more reflection, I realized Sijo knew exactly what he was doing when he created Kajukenbo and allowed it to evolve. Even he didn't want to get stuck on one way only. Kajukenbo is not a Palama Set or a grab art. It's not the original method or tum pai, or chuan fa. Kajukenbo is bigger than all of that. It can be changed and altered and still be Kajukenbo. Just look at us, we are all Kajukenbo but have different ways about us.  

Perhaps it's ok to let things evolve and change. 


 :)

Pat
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 24, 2010, 11:33:12 PM
I find it funny that some of you feel its ok to decide what we should do and what we should not do about forms in Kajukenbo.
if you look back to what is written here you will see that Sijo has already told us what to do.
its up to each of you to teach the way your heart takes you.
thanks for the addvice from some of you but I think I will listen to Sijo.
he did not seem as concerned about forms as some of you.
I just think if we are going to seek advice about Kajukenbo we should listen to what Sijo said.
we all look up to him and give him credit but then turn around and tell others what we think should be done or changed to save kajukenbo.
thats just your opinion and it is respected, but I will go with what Adriano D. Emperado (Kajukenbo Founder) told me to do.

Harper

GM Powell, I agree with you.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ron Baker on February 25, 2010, 07:52:46 AM
Respectfully, I don't think anyone--even GM Harper--said that they don't teach forms.  Only that (in GMH's case) he don't teach them to adults; he does teach them to kids.

Personally, I'd teach them to all Kajukenbo beginners, whether they are kids or adults.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 25, 2010, 10:37:08 AM
Thank you, backfist.
I never said don’t teach the forms and I never said Sijo said not to teach the forms.
Re read the post if you need to.
As far as being a martial artist, Hmmmm
Martial art is the art of war (fighting).
 Not the art of dance.
Do we not train in martial arts to fight if we need to?
If one person spends 50% of his time doing forms and his opponent spends 100% of his time on fighting what will happen when they meet in combat?
I don’t think someone that puts more focus on forms should say that if you don’t do forms then you are not a martial artist.
That’s a cop out, and just one mans opinion.
Should I come back and say that if you are a forms person then you are not a fighter?
No, we are all martial artist.
We each just have a different flavor JUST LIKE SIJO WANTED.
I can also tell you from experience that I have been in hundreds of altercations through the years and have had many people step up to tell me that they train in this or that and then I knocked them out.
Those are the results that I’m interested in.
Do what you do and be proud of it.
Quit trying to convince people that your way is the right way.
Where would Kajukenbo be if Sijo thought like that?
As far as MMA, you are missing the big picture.
Kajukenbo was MMA before MMA was cool.
Sijo started it and then told us to evolve.
He did not say ok here it is now leave it alone.

Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: xGUMOx on February 25, 2010, 10:49:55 AM
I do not teach forms! I know the forms and if any of my students want to learn them i will teach them. I spent a lot of time with Sijo while he was with my uncle(GM Larry Gumataotao) and heard him talk about a lot of stuff. Sijo was a self defense man and Kajukenbo is a self defense art. I kept the Gumataotao tradition that Sijo loved. DESTROY the person in front of you!!! At the end of the day Kajukenbo was created to teach people self defense and how to survive in any situation. So thats what i teach!!! I AM KAJUKENBO!!!


      
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 25, 2010, 11:17:40 AM
As a follow up I would like to say, thank you for all of the opinion shared here.
That is how we communicate.
I’m not saying that anyone here has said the following yet.
I will take it personal if someone says to me then your not Kajkenbo. 
My answer to that would then turn from thank you for your opinion to step on the mat and find out.
Sijo would not have kept me at his side for so long if I was not KAJUKENBO
(I AM KAJUKENBO EMPERADO METHOD)
So let us keep this non personal.
As GM Reyes say’s
With all do respect.

Harper
Sifu Bill,
Yes I saw you and your dad many times at your uncle’s house (my teacher)
And you know what you heard with your own ears.
And you are Kajukenbo
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 25, 2010, 02:11:47 PM
I do teach pinions, punch and grab arts at my school, but it is a very small part of our curriculum.  I do it for the warm up for the balance and the tradition, but I'm more about the combat and getting my students to be able to protect themselves and their families.   On our Black belt tests I have them do the art side but really it's maybe 10% of the test.  

"I always say when your not training someone else is training to kick your ...well we'll sat Butt here" and to me there just isn't enough time to train all you want to train and teach all you want to teach..I wish there was.  One of the problems is retention, you stop something to train something else then something may be forgotten.  So you need to train all the time and for the most part what will be effective to protect yourself..well at least that's my opinion....  

I asked GGM Gaylord this question many years ago......I said if I have two students both ready to test for Black but only one can get it, and one is awesome at forms and one a great fighter, though both are skilled in each, which should get the Black belt he said without hesitation the fighter, because Kaju is about the fighting first and he would rather have the fighter behind him if things got bad then the forms guy.....He was a cool cat....Peace
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 25, 2010, 04:36:25 PM
mr bono i have the answer to that question if i had two brown belts going up for first degree and one just did kata and could not fight and one could only fight and did not no any forms then my answer is i would not promote either! and the other part if i got into a fight then i would want the one that could fight by my side. but that does not make him a black belt. prof. jim juarez is going to be grand master gaylords successor ask him who he would promote i think he would give you the same answer.


                                              prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Patrick Campbell on February 25, 2010, 04:55:06 PM
I think that the diversity in our art is important and that with such diversity students can learn different things from different instructors. Each instructor has something(s) unique to bring to the table. If a student wants to train with someone who concentrates on forms and tournaments and his/her instructor does not, he can get the instructor's blessings to train with an instructor who can better serve his/her needs. This is  a major plus in KAJUKENBO in my opinion and this diversity must continue to grow and evolve.

As a Green Beret I helped to train a lot of foreign counter insurgency/guerilla forces on how to be Rangers and counter-terrorist warriors. In other words, small unit operations and patrolling etc... Although we had a common classroom foundation (Program of Instruction) in teaching the principles we always had the patrols walk with different advisors throughout the training phases of their course in order to get a different perspective on the same thing from a different advisor- in these cases patrolling and small unit combat operations. Each advisor had different levels of experience and different benefits to bring to the training table. In the end whenever we walked with them in full-blown combat operations it paid big dividends.

As instructors in KAJUKENBO we are really no different. We are diverse, have different strengths and weaknesses and concentrations but overall comprise a body of knowledge and experience that any student can benefit from. We all learn from each other and essentially we all benefit whenever the $#!# hits the fan. Students have a choice who they want to train under. Whether we acknowledge it or not we are a diverse Ohana and forms or no forms - at the end of the day it is about personal survival. IMHO

Pat
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 25, 2010, 06:33:08 PM
Mr Hemenes, I think you missed the point,  Hypothetically  it was two very skilled guys who could fight and do the art,  but they were just much better at one thing then the other.....

Not all people will be great at both, most are not.  The idea was what did he feel was more important.....
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 25, 2010, 07:26:19 PM
Professor Bono was not asking a question to the public.
he was telling us how (Grandmaster Gaylord) answered the question.
seems to me like Grandmaster Gaylord gave the same answer that Sijo would have given.
maybe some of you do not agree with the likes of Sijo and Grandmaster Gaylord.
but thats ok, as Kajukenbo students we have the right to be different.
with all do respect

Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 25, 2010, 08:17:41 PM
mr bono i was giving you a hypothrtically back! what i would due! if that was the case.

                                       prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 25, 2010, 08:30:56 PM
Good point GM Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 25, 2010, 08:45:03 PM
 no one is saying that gaylord or sijos wrong so i dont were thats coming from so lets not put words in anybodys mouth! and abought sijo i never trianed with him mr harper knows him better than i would but with gaylord i have been under him for 30 years and in the early days he trianed us hard and you needed to learn both and he would not give you a black belt becouse you were a good fighter! but agin that was in the early days.

                                          prof.hemenes


p.s. mr h like i said today to many cheer leaders!
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 25, 2010, 08:49:46 PM
Things progress over the years it just depends on the teacher, I took privates from GGMG for the last decade and he worked both, but his opinion on what was important to him at that point was clear.
......I'm sure it changed in the almost 6 decades he watch the art grow...
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 25, 2010, 08:58:58 PM
mr bono i have to agree with you 100% grand master gaylord did change thing since the early days back then we waited 5,6 years befor our next degree!

                                                  prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Tim Vargas on February 25, 2010, 10:26:13 PM
Forms were important to GGM Gaylord just as much as fighting, I dont think anyone can say otherwise.  It sounds like some want to down play forms, whatever, but GGM G thought forms were important to the point to not only adding his own flavor to the forms in those early years, but was in the process of RE-WORKING ALL the forms, as he was giving bits and pieces at his workouts and did say that not too long before his untimely death.  It was also said that Sijo did not say to NOT teach the forms,but DID say to perform the first three!  He didnt say NOT to teach any!

Remember, this is only the "tip of the iceberg".

So, is there a point were Kajukenbo stops being Kajukenbo?  Is it reduced simply to a name or claim to lineage?  What are the new requirements for one to claim to be Kajukenbo?  And again, if there are either 3 or NO forms taught, what are the criteria for rank?   If there will be an MMA (UFC style) branch (which Sijo did not do), will there be a need for rank? And if there is, what will the ranking requirements be?  Every branch as far as I know have criteria for rank.  Perhaps these could be answered at the next meeting?

I hope no-one looses sleep over these questions, but are important to ME. 

Thanks again.


Tim

Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: xGUMOx on February 26, 2010, 12:17:45 AM
A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT TRADITION AND REMEMBERING YOUR ROOTS BUT I KNOW SEVERAL BLACK BELTS RANGING FROM BLACK UP TO 5TH DEGREE THAT DONT EVEN KNOW WHO SIJO IS!!! >:( THEY DONT KNOW ANY HISTORY AT ALL.

EXAMPLE 1:
I WAS WATCHING THE INTERVIEW WITH SIJO THAT PROF. BISHOP DID ONE DAY AFTER TRAINING WITH SOME OF MY STUDENTS. A 2ND DEGREE BLACK BELT CAME TO VISIT AND THEY ASKED WHY WE WERE WATCHING THE DVD AND "WHO THE HELL IS THAT TALKING"? I WANTED TO PUNCH THEM IN THE MOUTH BUT REALIZED IT WASNT THERE FAULT, ITS THE INSTRUCTORS FAULT!
 
EXAMPLE 2:
I WAS TALKING STORY WITH A 5TH DEGREE ONE DAY AND THE HISTORY OF KAJUKENBO CAME UP. HE TOLD ME HE WAS NEVER TAUGHT ANY HISTORY AT ALL. ALL THE HISTORY THAT WAS TAUGHT WAS ABOUT HIS INSTRUCTOR AND HIS FAMILY! HE SAID HE NEVER SEEN A PICTURE OF SIJO UNTIL HE LOOKED IT UP ON THE INTERNET!!! WTF!!! >:(

THESE ARE THE INSTRUCTORS THAT ARE RUINING THE SYSTEM. IN MY OPINION THESE TWO EXAMPLES ARE WORSE THAN SOMEONE THAT DOES NOT TEACH FORMS!
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 26, 2010, 12:27:29 AM
Tim I was the one at his house reworking the forms, punch and grab arts and the reason was for simplicity and to be more direct to relate them to fighting.  It was Esther and I going over them and then we would present them at the KAA workouts.....
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Tim Vargas on February 26, 2010, 02:00:43 AM
Tim I was the one at his house reworking the forms, punch and grab arts and the reason was for simplicity and to be more direct to relate them to fighting.  It was Esther and I going over them and then we would present them at the KAA workouts.....

Prof. Bono,

All I can say is what I heard and saw.  GGM G said HE was rworking the forms and DID teach them at the class I am talking about, YOU or Sifu Esther were not leading his portion of the class at that time.  He also did mention that through time he has found easier ways of accomplishing the same results, and find it hard to believe that he had no part in reworking the forms, especially when he said the opposite.   I am not denying your envolvement in the reworking of the forms, but only can comment on what I heard and saw.  

Thanks for your posts, anything to add to my questions in my last post?

Take it easy.


Tim
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Patrick Campbell on February 26, 2010, 07:39:03 AM

  WAS TALKING STORY WITH A 5TH DEGREE ONE DAY AND THE HISTORY OF KAJUKENBO CAME UP. HE TOLD ME HE WAS NEVER TAUGHT ANY HISTORY AT ALL. ALL THE HISTORY THAT WAS TAUGHT WAS ABOUT HIS INSTRUCTOR AND HIS FAMILY! HE SAID HE NEVER SEEN A PICTURE OF SIJO UNTIL HE LOOKED IT UP ON THE INTERNET!!! WTF!!! THESE ARE THE INSTRUCTORS THAT ARE RUINING THE SYSTEM. IN MY OPINION THESE TWO EXAMPLES ARE WORSE THAN SOMEONE THAT DOES NOT TEACH FORMS!


I definitely agree with this statement. I often wonder - there seems to be certain contention right now with some folks over forms and possibly other things that they feel should be standardized wthhin their particular branch etc... why these things were not as contintious or worked out whenever SIJO was still with us I guess I'll never be privy to know but am really starting to figure out. Is it that they were really not big issues at all as far as SIJO was concerned and that instructors were doing what they wanted to do anyway? And that SIJO for the most part understood and was OK with it? What makes things different now?

I agree also in part with Tim as regards the next meeting and the importance of setting a standardization agenda and if it should even be an issue at all.

Pat
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Jason Goldsmith on February 26, 2010, 09:59:19 AM
Humbly, I'd like to suggest that if we consider forms to be the defining factor of what makes something Kajukenbo, then 3 of the branches (Chu'an Fa, Tum Pai, and WHKD) could be excluded from Kajukenbo, depending on where the bar is.  In WHKD, we teach the Palama Set #1-4 as one form linked together, but that is it.  None of the other Pinions from the Original Method are in our system, and what makes WHKD WHKD is not the forms; many of the other forms we learn are traditional kung fu forms not exclusive to the art. 

Rather, I think what defines Kajukenbo (and WHKD) is the blending of various martial arts styles (mixed martial arts), and the ability to adapt to situations and defend yourself.

Finally, some people here seem to have a strong dislike for Kajukenbo being involved in MMA, and I would ask why this is.  Kajukenbo is a fighting art that is a mix of system.  Students like to compete in their hobbies, but Kaju is poorly suited to the standard martial arts tournaments of point fighting.  MMA, while not for everyone, allows those people who are truly dedicated to compete in an environment as close to a real fight as is possible, and to test their skills.  It seems like a great marriage to me, and something we should embrace, not scorn.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 26, 2010, 10:01:08 AM
This post is a good example of how different we are.
So now what?
Do we waste time arguing about who is right?
I don’t care to be a monk seeking the ancient Chinese secrets.
But there are those that do and I’m fine with that.
I have many good friends that are very deep in to that part of the art.

Some of the elders thought it was fine to say I don’t like the way the original forms were done so I will modify them to make them better.
If it’s not the original way then is that not a change in our history and tradition.
Or do we have a new start of tradition with each branch or instructor?
If everyone is doing different forms depending on which instructor you are under then what’s the point of saying Kajkenbo history and tradition.
It’s all modified history and tradition.

I do teach the forms but they are just not that important at my school.
I have been stirring up this post to get you all involved.
But to tell the truth most people are stubborn and don’t care to listen to anything except what’s set in their own mind.

I think the forms should be taught.
But they should be taught the original Emperado way if you are going to use the terms Kajukenbo history and tradition.
Then you can modify them after that to fit your needs.
When I teach in my class I will always show the original way I was taught and then I will show the way I like to do it.
That way I do not forget the TRUE history and tradition
The elders may have modified the forms but they also knew the original way.
Do you?

To finish up here I will say that yes we should teach the forms.
I just don’t care for them
Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 26, 2010, 10:04:24 AM
Jason I agree with you on the MMA thing.
Kajukenbo is MMA
it's just that most of the kajukenbo people that say they like to bang are full of it.
how many of you ever heard Sijo say
rules? what rules? just knock em out!
Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: allen73 on February 26, 2010, 10:19:43 AM
SGM Parker had a great quote that I think would fit this post. "Knowledge is bound where tradition begins and tradition is bound where knowledge begins". As I said in an earlier post my system of Kajukenbo doesn't teach the Palamas, does that make me less of a Kajukenbo practioner? I don't think so. Also, I see many folks preaching about tradition whatever happen to addressing people by title you know like Grandmaster Harper being Grandmaster and Professor Bono being Professor and not Mr.Aloha.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 26, 2010, 10:21:04 AM
I don't think mma is as close to REAL combat as you can get. MMA is a sport, just like football or baseball. MMA has weight classes, unlike real combat, rules, unlike real combat, a ref, unlike real combat, only 2 fighters, unlike real combat, no weapons, unlike real combat, no risk of jail time, unlike real combat, and the risk of death is low, unlike real combat.

On another note, I am glad to see so many different points of view. That's what Kaju is all about. As long as things don't get taken personally then its a very healthy process. When it becomes a who said what and who said that, that doesn't really matter. If Sijo said he only put forms in the system so it would be taken as a legitimate art then good. That doesn't take away from the benifits they offer. And if they don't provide anything useful to you then don't do them. I think the main point is, if it helps and works for you then good. If not, then that's fine too.   
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Jason Goldsmith on February 26, 2010, 11:08:08 AM
I don't think mma is as close to REAL combat as you can get. MMA is a sport, just like football or baseball. MMA has weight classes, unlike real combat, rules, unlike real combat, a ref, unlike real combat, only 2 fighters, unlike real combat, no weapons, unlike real combat, no risk of jail time, unlike real combat, and the risk of death is low, unlike real combat.


Let me clarify the "as you can get."  It's as close as you can get in a competitive environment without the risk of going to jail.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Jason Goldsmith on February 26, 2010, 11:13:47 AM


I think the forms should be taught.
But they should be taught the original Emperado way if you are going to use the terms Kajukenbo history and tradition.
Then you can modify them after that to fit your needs.
When I teach in my class I will always show the original way I was taught and then I will show the way I like to do it.
That way I do not forget the TRUE history and tradition
The elders may have modified the forms but they also knew the original way.
Do you?

To finish up here I will say that yes we should teach the forms.
I just don’t care for them
Harper


That's a good question GM Harper.  The forms I know I teach as I was taught.  I believe (based on comparing what I learn to videos, etc) that the Palama set 1-4 I teach are the same as were handed down from Sijo to Sid and then to GM Al, and finally me.  However, I also  know that I don't know everything from the Original Method; the grab arts in WHKD are somewhat different from the original grab arts, for example.  Does that make me not Kaju?  I personally feel I am Kaju.  Sijo sanctioned the 4 branches long ago, and I am part of one of those 4 branches.  Now, can just anyone make a branch and call it Kaju?  I think that when Sijo was alive he had the authority to make branches and he saw fit, but now that he has passed on, it is up to the senior leadership to define that process.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Tim Vargas on February 26, 2010, 11:38:55 AM
"That's a good question GM Harper.  The forms I know I teach as I was taught.  I believe (based on comparing what I learn to videos, etc) that the Palama set 1-4 I teach are the same as were handed down from Sijo to Sid and then to GM Al, and finally me.  However, I also  know that I don't know everything from the Original Method; the grab arts in WHKD are somewhat different from the original grab arts, for example.  Does that make me not Kaju?  I personally feel I am Kaju.  Sijo sanctioned the 4 branches long ago, and I am part of one of those 4 branches.  Now, can just anyone make a branch and call it Kaju?  I think that when Sijo was alive he had the authority to make branches and he saw fit, but now that he has passed on, it is up to the senior leadership to define that process."

I am ALL FOR MMA (UFC Style) fighting in Kajukenbo, there is NO WHERE you can find to where I said otherwise.  Heck, I think we SHOULD HAVE been the FIRST to get it going, but is NOT TOO LATE.  Kajukenbo have many good fighters in all branches, but I personally would like to see another branch SPECIALIZING in it.  As you stated, Sijo has passed on, but he did leave groundwork on what it takes to make a branch, etc.  I dont know if Grandmaster Harper has even thought about it or not, BUT I see that branch, and would be nice to get those highrankers to start the ground work so that NO ONE can say anything later.   Why leave loose ends?  I am not that kind of person, so I am just helping the discussion along.  If it works great, if not, well, I can say at least I felt my questions were relevant.

As for forms.  In all of the existing branches, forms are done, whether you do pinians/palama sets or monkey man forms to tai chi.  Does that mean any other branch in the future would also have to teach forms?  NOT beyond the Three Palama Sets *required* by Sijo.  The sport MMA guys have no rank in the ring, there are no belts, they do no forms in the ring, its all about who wins.  Everyone of their fighters train hard, but there will always be winners and losers in the sport, but doesnt mean the one who lost sucks.  It just means there is another day to change the out come.   I do have alot of thoughts on the subject, but have had little time due to my newborn son being born prematurely and is in the hospitial.  So, this is my last post on the subject.   I am all for unity in Kaju. , but I believe to squash any and all mumbling in the future, a definate BRANCH of sport MMA should be established.

Thanks.

Tim

P.S.  This is my OWN opinion and speak for no one, nor do I represent anyone but MYSELF.
 
 
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Danjo on February 26, 2010, 11:45:12 AM
It seems to me that when Sijo said his last official thing on forms (everyone should know the first three), that he was saying two things: 1) Keep enough for unity's sake and 2) don't put your emphasis on them. Thanks again to GM Harper and the rest who have been straight up and forthright about what they have been told and shown. This is the kind of discussion that really makes for a stronger art. Everyone knows where everyone stands and no one is left out.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 26, 2010, 11:54:27 AM
So, is there a point were Kajukenbo stops being Kajukenbo? To me if you learned Kaju for a qualified Kaju teacher you are kaju no matter what.....it is a very diverse art

 Is it reduced simply to a name or claim to lineage? I don't think so everyone has their own path

 What are the new requirements for one to claim to be Kajukenbo? again, maybe we all have no way as way...

 And again, if there are either 3 or NO forms taught, what are the criteria for rank? you as an Instructor determine that for your students.....though I have to admit I would have GGMG qualify students I was thinking of promoting....but in reality he always said that I held them back to long.....he used to say when you were that rank did you know all they know now....good point I thought

  If there will be an MMA (UFC style) branch (which Sijo did not do), will there be a need for rank? I think Kaju is a mixed art very clearly...though I am not that keen on the term now that I see  people with just months of training feel like they are expert fighters, because they call themselves MMA.....it's watered down, especially in certain areas of the country

Also Tim on the portion of class you were talking about I would have been assisting him since it was his stuff to teach....I missed 2-3 workouts in the past 12 yrs and trained at his house and he came to my school so when he was heading in a direction I knew because he needed someone to bounce things off of...........of course many times it was his fist......you know that jade ring story and my forehead I'm sure... ;D
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 26, 2010, 11:56:02 AM
GM Harper I believe you are right on the stubborn mentally of many.......many can't see the forest because of all the trees.....hopefully that will change someday...
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ghost Rider on February 26, 2010, 12:11:43 PM
Thank you,
To all of you I will (NOT) say now you see it my way.
but I will say we are talking and makeing ground as brothers and sisters.
this is how we understand what each other are thinking.
this is how we grow closer.
this is how we make Kajukenbo strong.
I like the MMA brach thing but I also feel now that Sijo is gone Kajukenbo should be left as is.
Dont get me wrong I would love to be involved in that and I feel in my heart that Sijo would say yeah go for it.
He loved what I do in my school and he loved the go for broke attitude, he was the king of that.
but Sijo is not here and making a new branch of any kind without his ok would just open an even bigger can of worms.
I would also like to say that I feel this has been one of the most productive talks here on the cafe that I have been involved in
Thank you

Harper
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 26, 2010, 12:30:05 PM
I agree now that he is gone the branches should stay as they are...
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: grand master hemenes on February 26, 2010, 12:34:08 PM
grand master harper this was one of the best talks this cafe had we got everybody thinking! my teacher had a saying ( i see said the blind man ) he told me that when i was very young so for a long time i did not know what he meant becouse i was very young and did not care! but as i got older my eyes opened up and i understand what he meant! i think this saying fits this talk.


                                                kajukenbo forever!

                                                   prof.hemenes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Mitch Powell on February 26, 2010, 12:44:35 PM
I wonder what Mitose was thinking when Chow opened his school and called what he taught kenpo-karate instead of kenpo jujitsu. I wonder what Chow was thinking when Emperado took Chow's kenpo-karate and added jujitsu/judo and boxing to it to create his own style. I wonder what Emperado was thinking when Ramos created his own style of kajukenbo, when Gaylord created his own style of kajukenbo, when Dacascos created his own style of kajukenbo. You can be mad at those who make changes or praise them for having the wisdom to develop something new and the passion to put in all the hard work that comes along with it. I've seen pictures of my grandfather riding in a covered wagon on his farm. I'm sure glad I don't have to ride that wagon to Oakland everyday to go to work!   
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: kfarny on February 26, 2010, 12:54:57 PM
GM Harper,
I have to agree. This is a riveting discussion.  This is the kind of discussion that I imagine happened at the meeting in January. I still eagerly await a transcript of some kind related to the questions that were asked and answered there. I would hate to think that because I could not attend, I (and many others) will never know what was, or is being discussed at these meetings.
On this topic in particular: I think the four main braches are best left intact. That said, an "MMA Method" Kajukenbo seems viable.
on a related note, coming from the TumPai branch of this art, I do not know the original pinyons that Sijo taught. I am not sure I have even seen all of them. Although, through youtube and websites such as this I have seen a lot of the original art. I can point to something from another branch and say hey, I have that in my form or my grab art looks a lot like that. I have incorperated a lot of the things from other branches back into mine.(Mostly because the soft style of TumPai is not really suited to my being a big, oldish, slower guy.)
But I never got to meet Sijo. All I know of him is what others have said, written or posted in the form of video. I am forced to take what those who were there say he said or did.
It makes it very confusing for someone who has only been in this art for 6ish years or so. We as 4th, 5th, 6th generation students do not want to offend or step on toes by asking questions we want answers to without insulting you or Sijo. It haa become very difficult to get the history because it moves further away with each day. At some point it will be "my dad said that Sifu said that GM Harper said that GGM Gaylord said that Sijo said . . ." , and then we are in trouble. Maybe we need an official Kajukenbo historian? Sorry about my rambleing. Small text box on a Blackberry.

With respect to all,

Kirk
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: handsofstone23 on February 26, 2010, 01:01:07 PM
I think Grandmaster Gelinas is as close to a kajukenbo historian as we have. There are many things, documents, videos, stories, what have you, that are kept hidden and not shared. When more people such as Grandmaster Harper saying that Sijo said he only added forms for a specific purpose, I didn't know that. We need more of that in order for the history to be preserved. Be it good bad or ugly, it should come out.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: John Bishop on February 26, 2010, 07:13:36 PM
GM Harper,
I have to agree. This is a riveting discussion.  This is the kind of discussion that I imagine happened at the meeting in January. I still eagerly await a transcript of some kind related to the questions that were asked and answered there. I would hate to think that because I could not attend, I (and many others) will never know what was, or is being discussed at these meetings.
With respect to all,

Kirk

It's been several weeks since the January meeting.  I know there were more then a couple video cameras recording the meeting.

Is anyone interested in making copies of this meeting available to those who could not attend?  If no one has the equipment or time available to duplicate and mail out copies of the DVD, I will do it if you send a dvd or VHS tape of the meeting to me. 
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Patrick Campbell on February 26, 2010, 07:26:44 PM
Thanks Professor Bishop. Hopefully someone can step up here. It would be great to have a copy for reference and posterity and in the future make arrangements to have someone tape everything at the next meeting.

pat
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: GM ALAN M. REYES on February 27, 2010, 05:18:07 AM
Under the banners of Suisun Self Defense or Reyes Kenpo Karate, we have taught Beg. (children) hoping they will become Adv. (young Adults) and hopefully full fledged Blk Belts (Adults) within a certain time, training, knowledge, and what we call "Martial Art" maturity.
And depending on the EFFORT applied "ONLY" by them, will they be able to be able to call themselselves Martial Artists, Self Defense Practitioners, Kajukenbo Stylists, or KMMA Fighters. And the same scenario, goes for Adults starting at a late age,,,,
All Beg. wether Adults or Children will have to work on their Fundamentals,ie: "Pinans", not a big part of knowledge, but knowledge, accepted and trained correctly, can be devastating. Whatever your "Branch" or "Method" draws their knowledge from. Even it's a  new way, like that of the KMMA way of thinking. Even they have fundamentals that they have to meet to become an viable student to their art of fighting.
But believe me when I say, that I have seen the power and knowledge of all concerned Sijo Emperado,my Father GGM Al Reyes, within "OUR" Kaju circle, if applied correctly, a fledgling student, can become a Master of this Self Defense Art, at a technique Level, fighting level, or extreme cases a killing level...
I have been taught to accept this way of life, hopefully others will never have to use it, but it's there when needed, again and again, and again,, that's the basis of Kajukenbo, any branch or method,,, from beginner to advance to master...
SO AS SIJO SO APTLY SAID, "A MASTER IN THEIR OWN ART, WILL BE A HARD MASTER TO BEAT"......
So In His thinking, training, developement, and continous dedication will make you a Master,,,but will you be that MASTER that will be hard to beat,,,,hopefully,no one will ever know! Only "YOU" know, wether you stepped on the mat and gave your training ALL that was possible to give, at that point, at the end of the day are you a FIGHTER,,,then it is your right to be a Kaju Student,,,If not, keeep on training and keep on evolving,, the payoffs will be ten fold. "Pinans", as one so aptly put it "tip pf Ice berg".

Hope to see everone voicing their likes and dislikes at the next  UNITY GATHERING on April 10th 2010 in Vacaville, Starts at 10:00am and ends at 4:00 pm..... email me!
Nor-Cal iis the greastest concentration of KAJU Stylists there are, hope to see all represent,,

with all due respect
GMReyes
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Ron Baker on February 27, 2010, 07:10:20 AM
I wonder what Mitose was thinking when Chow opened his school and called what he taught kenpo-karate instead of kenpo jujitsu. I wonder what Chow was thinking when Emperado took Chow's kenpo-karate and added jujitsu/judo and boxing to it to create his own style. I wonder what Emperado was thinking when Ramos created his own style of kajukenbo, when Gaylord created his own style of kajukenbo, when Dacascos created his own style of kajukenbo. You can be mad at those who make changes or praise them for having the wisdom to develop something new and the passion to put in all the hard work that comes along with it. I've seen pictures of my grandfather riding in a covered wagon on his farm. I'm sure glad I don't have to ride that wagon to Oakland everyday to go to work!  

All were very proud men, and initially may have resented their students for progressing and evolving.  That Kajukenbo still exists, is proof that those proud pioneers set aside their differences enough so that their students' could develop and progress while honoring their roots.  For Kajukenbo to continue to evolve and develop in a healthy way, it's our duty to set aside pride and ego--this includes not teaching our students that it's their loyal duty to carry generational grudges--and appreciate Kajukenbo for what it was, what it is, and what it will be.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: KajuJKDFighter on February 27, 2010, 09:28:00 AM
thanks Prof B
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: lairkenpo on April 26, 2010, 10:06:55 AM
In my humble opinion, and I am not saying this facetiously, we need to first define "forms" or "kata" so we can all be on the same page in this discussion.
The majority of us use the words "form" or "kata" when referring to the formalized training drills created by the founders of our method, in this case, Kajukenbo. As history shows, many of these were original, and many were adaptation of Japanese or Okinawan kata, with a Kajukenbo flavor. At the time these were developed, these were what separated Martial Arts from street-fighting, and Kajukenbo was built around a traditional Kenpo base. In interviews, Sijo Emperado referred to "forms" as "dances" (see the Joseph Jennings interview for Panther Productions). His personal preference in teaching was the self-defense sets ("quin" or "waza").
This having been said, the argument could be made that each of these self-defense sets was a "form" or "kata", itself. This is how
Prof. Chow taught his Kenpo Karate, and many say Sijo was heavily influenced by Prof. Chow in his teaching method. Never having studied with Sijo directly, I don't know how true this is. Just repeating what I've heard...don't hang the messenger!  Again, I'm not implying that Sijo Emperado found no value in "forms', or that he didn't teach them. I did find it rather interesting that he referred to them as "dances".
All dojo that use combinations of kicks, punches, or kick/punch combinations on heavy bags, focus mitts, Thai pads, during shadow-boxing, or during standardized partner training drills, well, that's their "kata" or "forms". They may not favor the Palama Sets, or Naihanchi, or Bassai, but, if they are formalized training methods, by definition, they are "kata" or "forms". I know that last statement is going to piss-off a lot of people, but, a wise man once said; "The truth may not always be pleasant, but it's always the truth!"
Again, this is just the opinion of one lifetime practitioner. If you don't agree, we are Ohana just the same. After all, I don't agree with everything my brother believes, yet he's still my brother!

Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Gints Klimanis on February 16, 2014, 05:08:07 PM

From what Sijo told me, Palama Set 11 was developed from the "Naihanchi" kata that Mitose taught.  It was known by all the kenpo people from the Mitose, Chow, Young, and Emperado schools. 
Since it was commonly performed at funerals, it became nick named the "Dance of Death".
[/quote]

Prof Bishop,

Is this "Dance of Death" funeral tradition still alive ?  I would like someone to help me leave for the Dojo in the Sky that way.
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Greg Hoyt on February 17, 2014, 08:28:04 AM
I agree Gints, I love Pinan #11...the Dance of Death.  The first time I saw it performed live was when Sifu Kristin demonstrated it for our class on Maui many years ago.  Sigung Trent Sera taught us (the adult class), and we practiced it as a team.  But the most heartfelt and spiritual performance I witnessed was when Grandmaster Alan Reyes "danced" Pinan #11 at Sijo's funeral service on Maui.
Rest in Peace, Sigung.
Rest in Peace, Sijo. 
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Gints Klimanis on February 25, 2014, 01:29:04 AM
Hello Sibak Greg,

Wonderful account of the "Death Dance" at Sijo Emperado's funeral.   Would anyone have a picture or a video of this moment?

Gints
Title: Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
Post by: Tony49 on February 25, 2014, 08:49:07 PM
We have a Moving and Stationary Death Dance in out system.  Not sure how close it is to Pinan #11.