Author Topic: Kajukenbo Prayer  (Read 53393 times)

Offline onephatboydave

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2004, 04:37:27 PM »
I couldn't agree more...but my question regarding the prayer is that the prayer doesn't thank G_d, it thanks Jesus Christ.  So, if you are a Jew or a Muslim, you cannot pray to Jesus.  
To OFK
To answer your ?  In the Christian Religion God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirt are one in the same. ie The Holy Trinity.  If you really want to know who your praying to ask the one who wrote it.

As far as the Jewish, and Muslim faith, I don't think the Prayer was written to convert practitioners but away to give thanks and show respect.

Whether you decide to say the prayer or not don't let that be the reason not to learn KAJUKENBO. As a Martial Artist I stay open to different things. Hence the Ying and the yang. In every positive there is negative,and in every negative there is positive.      
I hope I was of some help.
Sorry everything was in yellow first time quoting
onephatboydave
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 08:08:52 AM by Rob Poelking »
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Under Grand Master David V. Amiccuci
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napashifu

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2004, 12:22:39 AM »
Aloha  8)

Kajukenbo is a flexible art, right?

So why shouldn't the prayer also be flexible?

If a student came to me and said that they could not say the prayer because it went against their religious beliefs, I would tell them to  modify the prayer to fit their own beliefs.

Just my two cents ;D

aloha
Mike Ritchie
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 12:23:43 AM by napashifu »

Offline V. F. Mateo

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2004, 02:56:22 PM »
We have 3 types of prayer in our school. First and foremost we normally use the prayer of GM Ordenez printed in 1947. We also use GM Gaylord's prayer during our seminars which includes other KAA instructors and the original prayer=1947. At times we have a silent prayer of gratitude, forgiveness, and those who have harmed you and your love ones (pray for your enemy). :)

I had students from Viet Nam that realize the importance of prayer. They have mentioned to me how important it was even if others aren't Christians. ???

It is not how a school begins but what it has to offer. Our combination art form is significant to our daily life. A prayer both silent or a loud brings harmony to ones soul. And if anyone tries to harm you, you can take that person(s) out with multiple strikes and submission. Look beyond, for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is in our grasp. :-\
« Last Edit: December 12, 2004, 03:29:00 PM by V. F. Mateo »
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Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2004, 09:17:11 PM »
The Prayer is directed to God, not Christ, you only asking for the blessing in Christ's name and by saying this you are not asking it of Christ but of God.
 So you just don't ask in his name or don't say anything. Not rocket science is it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2004, 09:21:06 PM by Sifu Sin Bin »
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Offline lightning

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2004, 05:25:21 PM »
i don't see a good reason why an instructor wants to force his students to pray or convert to his religion.

If you dont want to pray, you can keep quiet or leave early.
John E. Lee, Green belt Kajukenbo Original Method

Offline onephatboydave

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2004, 10:42:49 PM »
i don't see a good reason why an instructor wants to force his students to pray or convert to his religion.

If you dont want to pray, you can keep quiet or leave early.
Lightning,
I don't think Instructors are forcing their students or attempting to convert any of their students to their religion.

I think it is somthing they ask out of RESPECT.

When I started training I first went to the Dojo to see what it was all about. Students should never be forced to do what they don't want to do.  If they are then they should find another Dojo to train. When I signed up their was no one there twisting my arm.

If a student is having an issue then they should bring it to the attention of the Instructor.

I have met many GrandMasters and Instructors and have seen nothing but LOVE and RESPECT for the art they teach, and their students.

Lets not read more into the Prayer then what it is.  The Prayer is a way of giving Thanks and to keep us humble.

Weather you say it or not RESPECT IT.

With KAJUKENBO LOVE ONEPHATBOYDAVE



David Garcia    Student Blackbelt/Black Sash
Tony Ramos Kajukenbo
Under Grand Master David V. Amiccuci
Honor, Bravery, Loyalty,Family

Offline Dean Goldade

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2004, 04:37:35 PM »
I can't believe this has drug on this long..

It is pretty simple for me... In my school, we will say the prayer. If there are parts of it you don't believe in, then don't say those parts... As Sifu Rob said, this ain't rocket science....

You leave early, don't plan to come back.

This whole thread is as silly as me stating that I am a christian, therefore I can't bow, salute, or train in an eastern system whose founders maybe, just maybe worshiped differently than I do.... Oh me, Oh my.. What do I do..... LOL

If you can't handle this little decision, how you gonna handle the rest of your training, or better yet the reality of the street??

Toughen up... This is Kajukenbo..... OOOOOSssssss


Nuff said.

Dean.
Student of the arts
www.austinkaju.com

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2004, 04:45:02 PM »
>I couldn't agree more...but my question regarding the >prayer is that the prayer doesn't thank G_d, it thanks >Jesus Christ.  So, if you are a Jew or a Muslim, you >cannot pray to Jesus.  

Our prayer is passed down via the CHA3 Kenpo branch.
It does not contain the last line paying respect to Jesus Christ.  That line was added after the original prayer was authored.   On a funny note, it is more traditional to use the original Ordonez prayer that doesn't mention Jesus Christ.  Thus, the prayer is non-denominational.
The prayer does mention that the United States was founded on Christian principles.  That statement isn't
false as all of the founding fathers were Christian, and
thus their morality was based on Christian principles.

Overall, our club has few problems with the prayer,
which we recite at the start and end of every session.
No one is forced to say the prayer, but everyone is expected to know it.  

One student insisted that uttering "Christian Principles" was against his religion.
An otherwise well-educated individual, this fellow really didn't understand its usage.  He was allowed to say "Jewish Principles" or just stay silent during those words, as he did want to recite the prayer.  It is hard
to counter the substitution of "Jewish Principles" as
Christianity is (uh oh, I'll get in trouble here) considered by some to be a reformation of Judaism.  And, we don't know exactly which principles were used to found this country and whether they are exclusively Christian.

Other students have questioned the ritual of the prayer.
These students are largely from strong religious backgrounds, yet consider themselves atheists.  These
people generally have contradictory values, such as
labeling themselves of a particular group yet insisting that group isn't defined by racial/genetic boundaries and
is not actually defined by a religion.  That's a big topic, so I'll move on.  Others insist that since they do not
believe in God, they will not participate in the prayer because to do so would be false and dishonor those that geninuely recite the prayer.  I'm not sure where I am, but I do recite every word of the prayer.

Overall, about half of our students question the use of the prayer.  That's a large percentage, so obviously, this is not a topic to be overlooked.  No one seems to
have trouble bowing to each other or bowing as they enter the room.  Apparently, the history of our bow is respect to the American flag.  Our latest practice room is
a rented time slot in a fitness club.  We are not allowed any permanent fixtures, including advertisements of our class schedule on the bulletin board.  Thus, we bow to an invisible flag.

Any thoughts ?

Gints
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
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Offline Brandi Ross

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2004, 04:52:40 PM »
Gints,

Does the health club place an American Flag outside during operational hours?  If so, you could bow in the direction of the flag even though it may not be visible.  We have to do that at some athletic events as the flag is too far way when the national anthem is done.  Another thought might be to have one of those "mini" flags used on fourth of July brought to class each night.  It might get old to carry it around, but then it would be available for the bow.  Just a couple of ideas off the top of my head.  Hope it helps.  If I think of anything else, I'll pass it along.  Anyone else have any ideas?

As for the prayer, we use it.  Sigung makes it optional for those who have various religious beliefs.  During the recital, if the student opts not to say the prayer, they are to remain silent and respectful.  Tradition is tradition and there to make us better individuals. Just my humble thoughts.

Brandi
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Offline John Bishop

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2004, 05:20:28 PM »
Gints:
When the city (Diamond Bar) moved us into the newly built facility, they said we couldn't put anything on the walls, since they would be renting out the rooms for weddings, business conferances, etc.  
So they gave us a folding tripod to put up our pictures during classes.  So what we have is a 16"X20" frame on our tripod during class.  
In the frame we have a banner across the top that reads "Kajukenbo".  
Centered under that is a 8"X10" picture of Sijo.  
On both sides of his picture are 5"X7" pictures of GM Aleju Reyes, and GM Gary Forbach.  
Above the 5X7's are a 4"X6" American flag, and a 4"X6" Hawaiian flag.
So you see we have all the bases covered, with one frame and tripod, that we put in our equipment cabinet when we're not there.
 
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2004, 06:10:37 PM »
On a humerous note, one student would pray before every art.  In a fearful nervousness, one East Indian student would whisper a prayer and cross his chest before doing each Grab Art.  Later on, I noticed that he also wore a gold cross necklace.  When I aksed him about it, he replied "I am not a Christian, but as an Hindu, we have many Gods.  I need all of the godly help I can get."  After five or so years, he's still training.
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline badsifu

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2004, 12:51:59 AM »
Where an American Flag T Shirt ;)

See if the gym would allow for an American flag in the room.  I used to teach for several gyms, and I think they would be pretty stuck if you asked them to put a flag in one of their workout rooms.  Imagine the negative publicity if they said no to that request.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2004, 05:59:34 PM »
Brandi,

There is no American flag in or outside the gym.  Although, now that you mention it, there is
a post office down the street that just happens to have a flag lined up with the entry point into the room.  So,
we have been bowing to a flag all of these years.

Gints
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2004, 06:02:44 PM »
Sigung Bishop,

Thanks for the idea on the folding tripod stand.  I'll mention it to Prof Rich Lewis as a possibility.  Though,
we've never talked about the missing flag we've been bowing to all these years.  Your rental room seems
far more personalized with your Kaju memorabilia.
Cool.

Gints
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

js5150

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2004, 04:13:10 PM »
Find God he'll guide you  :) to make the right decision he guided me to Kajukenbo.  It doesn't matter what religion as long as you have the faith.   Merry Christmas to all.  Amen   ;)



Jamie