Author Topic: Kajukenbo Prayer  (Read 53669 times)

Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2005, 12:42:21 AM »
Old fat kenpo guy,
   If I went to a school and there religous belief went against my own and violated my conscience to sit through their prayer then I would not train there. I understand completely your inability to put your faith behind your training. God should always come first, martial arts are only a hobby and you should not compromise your faith by doing something that violates God's will.
  Why don't you tell us what your religous preference is and perhaps we can find a Kajukenbo school that would match your belief system so you don't have to miss out on a great method of self defense.
    Good luck in your quest
Professor Rob Peladeau
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Grand Master Emil Bautista
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Offline sigung Sam Carter

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2005, 07:56:24 AM »
 Old Fat Kenpoka
If your best friend or family member asked you to come to his/her Catholic wedding and they prayed. Would you get up and walk out, not show up or would you sit there quietly out of respect?

I have never seen or heard of someone forced to say the prayer or kicked out because of their Religion. When it comes down to it Kajukenbo is  about family.

It sounds to me that you made a bigger deal out of something that is flexable to begin with. No disrepect intended just my thoughts.

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2005, 11:35:13 AM »
"Kajukenbo's not for everyone"

When people ask questions like;

"Why are your workouts so ruff?"
"Why does my child have to be 18 to be a black belt?"
"Why are you guys so traditional?"
"Why don't you guys wear white gi's like everyone else?"
"Why do you let your seniors make the rules for your school?"
"Why do you pray before and after class?"

My standard reply is; "Kajukenbo's not for everyone"
There are hundreds of martial arts availiable to fit everyones needs and desires.  
We have our traditions and philosophies that we hold dear.  And those traditions and philosophies make us Kajukenbo.  

« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 11:36:40 AM by John Bishop »
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Offline Old Fat Kenpoka

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2005, 11:55:43 AM »
"Kajukenbo's not for everyone"

When people ask questions like;

"Why are your workouts so ruff?"
"Why does my child have to be 18 to be a black belt?"
"Why are you guys so traditional?"
"Why don't you guys wear white gi's like everyone else?"
"Why do you let your seniors make the rules for your school?"
"Why do you pray before and after class?"

My standard reply is; "Kajukenbo's not for everyone"
There are hundreds of martial arts availiable to fit everyones needs and desires.  
We have our traditions and philosophies that we hold dear.  And those traditions and philosophies make us Kajukenbo.  



Thank you John.  I am fortunate to live in area with many great martial arts schools:  John Bono's Kajukenbo school, AKA Kickboxing, Ralph Gracie Jiu Jitsu, John Sepulveda's EPAK Kenpo, San Jose State Judo, Ted Sumner's Tracy's Kenpo, Golden State Tae Kwon Do, Fairtex Muay Thai, and many others.  Given all those choices, I chose a ritual free training environment for this time in my life.  

I have the highest respect for Kajukenbo, and the open mindedness of its practitioners.  My initial question was to understand the importance of the prayer in Kajukenbo and to point out that it is not for everyone--just as you have pointed out that many of Kajukenbo's other elements are not for everyone.  

The Kajukenboists on this thread have clearly explained the importance of the prayer -- and the open tolerant environment in which it is delivered.  My question is fully answered and I hope that this thread can follow through to a peaceful conclusion.  

Thank you again.
Alan Wortman aka Old Fat Kenpoka

Offline Dean Goldade

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2005, 01:45:15 PM »
OFK,
If you live close to Sigung Bono's school, then you gotta go check it out.. He does old school Kaju, Ton's of grappling, boxing, kickboxing, sticks,.. Stop by and visit.

Word of advice, get ready to be introduced into what Kajukenbo feels like... Some joined and didn't stay, but not because of the prayer... Lot's of good hard no B.S. training in that house.

He is my brother, and we were raised in the house of Yoshii... OOOOssssss..

Gotta love it.

Kajukenbo forever

Dean.
Student of the arts
www.austinkaju.com

Offline Old Fat Kenpoka

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2005, 01:55:50 PM »
OFK,
If you live close to Sigung Bono's school, then you gotta go check it out.. He does old school Kaju, Ton's of grappling, boxing, kickboxing, sticks,.. Stop by and visit.

Word of advice, get ready to be introduced into what Kajukenbo feels like... Some joined and didn't stay, but not because of the prayer... Lot's of good hard no B.S. training in that house.

He is my brother, and we were raised in the house of Yoshii... OOOOssssss..

Gotta love it.

Kajukenbo forever

Dean.

Thanks.  It was actually my discovery of the prayer on Mr. Bono's website that led me to take that school off my new-dojo shortlist 2 years ago and to ask this question here recently.  

I did enroll at Ralph Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Mt. View where I've enjoyed training immensly and have experienced much physical pain.  

Unfortunately, I got a new job with lots of travel and late night con-calls last fall and have  had to take a few months off.  I'm flying domestically and to Ireland, the UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, and maybe China on business between now and the end of February.  In March, I plan to restart my Jiu Jitsu training.  
Alan Wortman aka Old Fat Kenpoka

Offline Dean Goldade

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2005, 06:36:23 PM »
OFK,
You are right in the area our old school used to be in. We were off of Lafayette about a block east of El-Camino. We were right around the corner from Mr Sepulveda's school.

The only ritual required is sweat and hard work at the house of Bono.

Anyway, good luck with the BJJ.

Dean.
Student of the arts
www.austinkaju.com

Offline GForbach

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2005, 12:36:22 AM »
RE:  The KAJUKENBO PRAYER..... by:  Gary Forbach
If I may weigh in on this "topic", I'd like to express my humble opinion.
The KAJUKENBO prayer was created shortly after the terrible attack upon Pearl Harbor as we all know through our study of American history.
Honestly, I don't think it was meant to spawn any thoughts of difference between our belief and/or non-belief.
As a “long time” follower and student of KAJUKENBO, I was taught by my teacher (the late Great-Grandmaster Aleju “Al” Reyes” that the prayer was merely the “asking of an over-seeing for the safety and guidance while training as students and individuals wanting to protect ourselves and our families” along with the belief that as Americans, we are promoting, protecting and propagating peace in the world.  Is this realistic?  We hope so.  Are we right in what we believe and profess?  We hope so.
I have been training in this art only since, 1967.  I have had many “non-Christians”/ “non-believers” question our prayer.  My response is that, “we are asking for an overseeing of wisdom, safety and guidance” and no more.  I was raised “Christian”, but now feel I am a “child of the universe”.  Sound strange?  Oh well!  Who really knows what is right or wrong?
I am NOT one to debate religion.  But I do believe there is a universal force that binds us all.  Yours, mine, theirs, right or wrong we are all one.
KAJUKENBO and its “prayer” should not, (ever) stop one from benefiting from the positive experience it has to offer anyone, anywhere.
And for those “KAJUKENBO”--“Instructors” that dismiss the value and meaning of our prayer, please rethink your opinion and understanding of its purpose.
I will not debate the prayer on this, or any public forum, but will be happy to talk to any “KAJUKENBO” Instructor about our prayer one on one.
Again, I’m not saying its right or wrong for any particular religion or belief, but only that its intent is one of honor and for the good of all mankind.
My final thought is that if one has that much of a problem understanding this, then peace be with you, Aloha Nui Loa, Malama Pono and A Hui Hou……  
The "big-picture" is eluding you and instead of spending so much time "debating" any issue, if you really want to learn our art, TRAIN>>>>Don't talk......  ;D
GM Gary Forbach
Gary Forbach, 9th Degree Original Method Kajukenbo under GM Aleju Reyes and Sijo A.D. Emperado

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2005, 12:42:23 PM »
At my school we have people from all facts of religion.  We allow our students to chose when it comes to the prayer.  I'm not here to teach religion. Some say only the parts they believe in, some not at all, depending on their background.  Of course some just can't remember it.  It's a Martial Arts school and every instructor has to chose how to run their  own school.  On my website there is nothing about making a student say the prayer.  People have called in the past to ask if they had to say it and I told them to do what is comfortable to them.  It never hurts to ask an instructor, rather then guess and be misinformed. Peace, Sigung JEBDC
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2006, 11:36:46 AM »
Don this section is for Gaylord Method Prayer..remember this is a Kaju site, maybe Google for the prayer you are looking for....Peace
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Mark Dinkel

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2006, 11:50:18 AM »
I think it is sad that there is such a tight grip on a tradition that truly has nothing to do with the art. Insisting on keeping religion in the dojo keeps people who otherwise might want to learn the art from learning it.

Traditions are good to keep mind of but sometimes they need to be let go. I am forever reminded of the old polish ham fable. Back in the day, a new polish family had immigrated to the US. Each year they had a celebratory feast. Tradition was that the ends of the ham would be cut off before it was cooked. This tradition was carried on for years and years until one day a granddaughter asked the grandmother why they cut the ends off the ham. The grandmother replied that when she was a child they had a very small oven and the full ham would not fit, hence they cut the ends off.

Aside from that traditional story, I also think it is sad that those who insist on keeping religion in the dojo with the guise that those who do not subscribe can sit there quietly or leave early are not respecting the group energy of a dojo nor those individuals expected to accept and sit quietly. If you are not respected, I believe you should not stay. There are plenty of other places to go that will respect you as an individual. If the Ohana does not grasp that fact, it will prevent itself from growing beyond its religious realms.

Also subjecting oneself to such degradation (lack of personal respect) on an occassion here and there is not a problem. So if a friend asked me to participate in his wedding, it should not be too much of a problem since he probably does not get married two or three times per week. To subject  oneself repetitively to a lack of respect as an individual will eventually start having impacts on one's self worth and self esteem.

Overall I think it is sad, people cannot leave religion in the home and house of worship where it belongs, not on my front door. And whether you want to accept it or not, keeping religion in the dojo keeps your dojo out of the hands of possibly half the population in your area.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 12:06:05 PM by Mark Dinkel »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2006, 12:08:17 PM »
   So Mark what you are saying is fold to the masses, if someone doesn't believe what you believe then change the entire tradition and class to fit their needs. It's not forced on them it's a choice.  In my school I would like students to wear their belts, some do not like belts.  The rule is 100 push ups for not wearing a belt, they never have to wear it, just crack out those push ups, either way is fine.
    I'm a Doc and many at times patients do not want say an X-ray they need, I refer them out if need be.  It's once again their choice, but it is my house and with that comes my rules.  Everyone can have their own training place with their own rules or traditions. 
  The way you explained it reminded me of the no prayer in school, or the no American flag thing we had here after 911, a couple of squeaky wheels trying to change the masses the country was built on...Nothing to do with the art, how long has the prayer been part of the art?  I learned it that way....I have students of all different faiths and have never had any trouble.....there are always different schools and different arts....of course you may have to learn some Korean, or Chinese or Japanese terms.....god forbid
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 01:35:28 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2006, 04:03:21 PM »
>I think it is sad that there is such a tight grip on a tradition that truly has nothing to do with the art. Insisting on keeping religion in the dojo >keeps people who otherwise might want to learn the art from learning it.

There are many other traditions that truly have nothing to do with the art - uniforms based on Japanese underwear, bowing, etc.
Bowing ?   How do Americans feel about lowering ones head before another in an act of deference ?

Many traditions were added by the host nation.  One of the traditions added by the United States/Hawaii is the prayer.
Consider that this art was passed to you by Christians.  I am not a Catholic, but I always enjoy raising the point that
the Catholic Church is the world's largest charitable organization (well, outside of US foreign AID).   No ones turns down
the aid.  That reminds me of that saying about biting the hand that feeds you.

>Overall I think it is sad, people cannot leave religion in the home and house of worship where it belongs, not on my front door. And whether you >want to accept it or not, keeping religion in the dojo keeps your dojo out of the hands of possibly half the population in your area.

My school is not big, but I've never witnessed anyone turn away due to the prayer.   There have been several students that don't recite
the prayer, although the "resistence period" is 1-2 years.   Chuckle.   Our class recites the prayer before and after each training session.

Do you really think that half of your prospects are turned away by the prayer ?
How would you arrive at that estimate ?




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Offline KBOWARRIOR

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2006, 05:00:51 PM »
I am a student of Prof. Harper's and we learned the prayer when I first started training.  We don't recite it now, not because we don't know it, because we choose not to.  It is part of the tradition.  Every person should learn it.  This stuff some people try to push on the masses about no religion in anything has gone to far.  It all goes to one point, if you don't want to do it, don't do it.  I have been to numerous schools and I have never seen anyone forced to do the prayer.  20 years ago we didn't have the problems in school and with the young people that we do today.  Could it be that people didn't force religion and love of American out of the public eye.  We had to fight just to put a small American flag pin on our uniform's at work, they didn't want to make anyone angry.  I have not found a person at work or on the street that had any problem with us wearing them.  Just politic's at it's finest. 
Sifu Mark Wallace
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Visalia, California
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2006, 06:31:41 PM »
         I agree Sifu Mark, schools have changed tradition a great deal in the past years because of outside pressure ( I have never met a teacher that agreed with the changes by the way and I know many) and from what i see, more kids are in trouble, less are qualified to graduate..etc,,,
          When all the flag controversy hit I wore red, white and blue whenever I could, put a flag up on either side of my house, in the car window, on my school hats and one in my office window.  I never heard a complaint.........
   We need to get some of our tradition back in my mind.....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision