Author Topic: How Tough is Too Tough?  (Read 7484 times)

Offline Chief Instructor

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How Tough is Too Tough?
« on: January 08, 2004, 11:22:45 AM »
Hi Folks,

I believe that the area I live in has too many traditionalists who look down upon me. I heard from a reliable source that an assistant at one of my competitors said a couple of my students left me and went to them because I was too tough and too violent.

All I can say is what a whimp! Where I grew up, if someone said your school was not too tough or violent that would be fighting words. However, this person meant his statement in a negative way.

To defend myself, the students who left me studied at the former traditional school that was once at my current location. These students were not use to real training, working up a sweat, or learning weapons that are commonplace on the street.

The funny thing is that being in Kansas is a lot different than being in Malaysia, Manilla, Los Angeles, D.C., or New York where violent encounters are commonplace. I recently had a student move to New York for college. All I know is that he is better prepared for a violent encounter than many of the students that my competitors train.

Thank goodness that 30+ of our students at our two branches also feel that way. Anyone who does not think the martial arts should have a practical emphasis on self-defense can go join some Take Yo Do school. But if they want to seriously train, come on over!

Respectfully,
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com

TODD

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2004, 12:04:31 PM »
We've lost and gained due to being too tough(if there is such a thing).  My sifu always suggested to a potencial student to drive 30 miles to the nearest TKD school before deciding to join.  They come back and sign the application/waiver.  But most still drop out.  We are what we are and sometimes change is not a good thing.

Offline Chief Instructor

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2004, 01:08:38 PM »
I think what you are doing is a good thing. We tell our potential students to check out ALL the other schools in town. However, we have the luxury of being unique plus our prices are low. And yes, I love it when they visit the TKD school.

Out of curiousity Todd, does that TKD school know you use them to demonstrate what an alternative perspective looks like?

My 10-year-old son and I visited a local TKD school and saw another 10-year-old sporting a second degree black belt. There were also a couple of kids in the lobby treating their belts like a jumprope. My son had this horrified look on his face because he knew what would happen if one of my students did this. Out of respect for the martial arts, I don't mention the schools name or the style when I discuss standards with my students.

Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com

Offline Brandi Ross

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2004, 01:31:05 PM »
Well said. :D  We have students come and go.  I, myself, have been through two knee surgeries since I started.  One was related to training, the other related to Ironman.  I keep coming back for more.  I will say that we lose students and have very few that are consistent.  We lost a few after we were getting ready for a tournament and a few got hit too often and too hard.  Well, self defense is the main purpose of training.  The diehard ones continue to come and Sigung is happy with whom he has.  To him, if one shows, then he will teach and the art will stay alive within him and the student. :)

We cannot recommend that potential students visit other dojo.  There are too few in our area (I believe there is a total of six, including ourselves).  Sigung does sit down and discuss things with the potential student and he/she is invited to train for a week at no charge.  If they are still interested, at that point, they get their gi, pay dues, sign papers, etc.  We are tough and that will never change. ;)

Aloha,
Brandi
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GM Rick Kingi
formerly under Sigung Alex Cadang

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2004, 01:58:34 PM »
I have very mixed feelings on this. I think the intensity of the training should match the experience of the student.

If you lit me up as a white belt I might think you were crazy and not pursue any martial art under the pretense that it was too hard for me.

As a brown belt if you continued to coddle me, my training and my belt are worthless as when I experience my first real violent encounter I would probably die.

I am at a stage now where I really want to turn the heat up in my own training, I'll take my bruises with great satisfaction. I just want to know that if it was real, I could deal with it.

Along with all that, Kajukenbo is my first experience with martial arts. I've never trained anywhere else so I don't have too much to compare to. I think I am glad that is true. I've seen the TKD guys come visit for a session and they go runnin and are never seen again.
Rob Poelking, Black Belt, Original Method
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http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com

TODD

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2004, 02:09:57 PM »
Andrew,
They may know we sent them visitors or may not.  We never communicated with them nor any others.  I liked using TKD schools because its what the general public associates with the martial arts nowadays.  I work with a TKD instructor and have told him what we have done and told him I will send people his way when I start teaching again.

TODD

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2004, 02:20:01 PM »
Control is used and blood is not meant to spill but it happens on occasion.  As all know those in the monkey line are very vulnerable to a beating.  White belts seem to dish out more punishment for lack of control.  Its a learning process of the amount of pain to give your fellow student without injury.

Kaj_minn

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2004, 02:47:17 PM »
 I agree with my instructor Shodanson,

There are things that you don't do though ;) Colored belts teach them there basics learn there pinans and basic moves as they progress bang them a little at a time by the time they hit Blue belt start with the banging by green and brown start going all out.  Then they could start leaving there CHI in the dojo more often  ;D :o  ;)


Chris

Offline Chief Instructor

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2004, 04:57:53 PM »
Yes, basics are important. However, my main focus is to make my students as dangerous as soon as possible. It's a real nasty world out there and I don't want anyone taking chances. If anyone of my students get hurt because I didn't teach them something properly, I will never forgive myself.

Andrew
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com

Offline Spaniard

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2004, 10:49:52 PM »
It's a pity that Tae Kwon Do can be used as an example of unrealistic so often today.  The way my instructor, Russell "Tim"Treat, taught Tae Kwon Do is why I like Kajukenbo.  It was liking coming home.  Alas.

Spaniard
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"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."- Voltaire

Offline D-Man

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2004, 11:44:55 PM »
Interesting topic.

Here's my standpoint.  I personally study martial arts to improve QUALITY OF LIFE.  I believe we always need a challenge (training as tough as we can handle) so that we can improve.  I believe we need a tremendous amount of skill to ensure that we are able to use our martial arts effectively (this comes from training tough).  Taking this into consideration, you also have to think about the big picture.  Are you training at a level that is so physically intense, that you actually deminish the QUALITY OF your LIFE?  Are you giving yourself a worse beating throughout your life than you would recieve if you didn't know how to defend yourself?  So many of my martial arts friends that are much older than I tell me the same thing; take care of your body.  They are all incredibly tough people, which is the result of some crazy training regimens, but what do they have to show for it?  Aches and paines.  The so called "dues they have paid" and "lickins they've recieved" have made them very good fighters, but they are in pain everyday because of it!!!  None of them have the QUALITY OF LIFE that they wish for.

 ;D

Don't get me wrong, I love to play hard.  Theres nothing more fun than scrapin and grapplin without gear on nice rough asfault on a cold dark night every once in a while.  It's great training, you can't get much more reallistic.  But for crying out loud, WHY DO WE DO IT!!!!??!????

 ;D

I try to train (and train others) in such a way that I maximize martial improvement and improvement in life at the same time.  No future knee problems, no callused knuckles, no iron groin practice.  I would suggest that if you do want to train hard, you don't scare students away with blood, bruises, and broken bones when they first start.  You can save that for later once you've got them hooked  ;).

PS

I always consider the smaller, weaker, or more timid students in class.  They need to learn to be tough, but I would hate to make them afraid of coming to class because they don't want to get hurt.

PPS

I think when Sijo was teaching his phillosophy was
-Class isn't over 'till there's blood on the floor- or something to that effect.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 11:57:25 PM by D-Man »

Offline Chief Instructor

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2004, 09:01:50 AM »
I agree with D-Man. However, even though our techniques and methods may be violent, a lot of it is on a mental level. I make my students visualize what the real deal would be like.

For example, once the bad guy is on the ground I would demonstrate a stomp to the head by stomping on the mat yet I would say "Stomp to the head!" For an arm break, I would put an arm in a lock and say "Here I would snap the arm!" as I pretend to give it an extreme tug.

Knife techniques are described graphically. Sometimes I would show the adult students pictures of the effects of a real knife fight.

Like I said before, martial artists we can choose to live in the real world or fantasy land. -Andrew
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2004, 09:36:47 AM »
White belts seem to dish out more punishment for lack of control.  

My sifu always said, the most dangerous two belt ranks,

White, because of lack of control
Brown, because they want control.
Rob Poelking, Black Belt, Original Method
Black belt under Sigung Ray Anderson
http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com

Offline Chief Instructor

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2004, 10:50:06 AM »
Brown, because they want control.


Mr. Poelking,

Aren't you a brown belt who wants control? Just like many parents, I bet you are experiencing a lack of control on your child. I hope things are going well with Rebecca. Just wait till she gets to two.

Andrew
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re:How Tough is Too Tough?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2004, 10:56:16 AM »
You got me pegged.

Actually, Becca is a sweetheart. She loves her Daddy. Mommy's just a little jelouse because I get the bigger grins & giggles.

http://becca.ohiokajukenbo.com
Rob Poelking, Black Belt, Original Method
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