Author Topic: Martial arts methologies in the street  (Read 2603 times)

Offline Wado

  • BlackBelt
  • Brown Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 529
  • llama llama
Martial arts methologies in the street
« on: April 30, 2005, 12:55:40 AM »
I'd like to discuss two methodologies commonly used in fighting systems and relate them to self-defense.

- Method 1 is the "seek comfort" method. This goes something like seek your own comfort as the priority. For example, if I were tired and standing up, then I should not just keep standing but I should seek a chair or place to sit down to be comfortable. If I'm thirsty, I should get something to drink.

This method is endorsed a lot in martial arts such as Tai Chi and Jiu-jitsu. Another way of saying it in martial arts is "take care of what bothers you the most first."

This methodology is used much in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, for instance, if I am being choked, my first priority is to counter the choke so that I'm not in danger of being choked out. Once I am safe from the immediate choke out, I can counter attack and work the reversal.

- Method 2 is the "do what is worst for the enemy" method. This is straight forward, do what is worst for the enemy even if that is potentially bad for you too. Another way of saying this is, "a strong offense is your best defense."

This method is endorsed a lot in martial arts such as Kenpo and Karate. For example, a person might move to strike me and my response might be to strike them in the throat. Or if someone grabs me, I might pinch them or grab them where it hurts and twist.


Which method is better? Certainly one wants to be comfortable and protect themselves from harm. On the other hand, one can attack and defeat the enemy at all costs, thereby ending a threat in a very quick manner.

It is not possible to be sure which is better all the time because it really does depend on the situation. So the situation or context becomes the qualifier to which methods should and can be used the best.

Many things define the situation, but to address this... In any given close quarters situation, there are three primary elements: Yourself, your enemy, and the environment.

Yourself and your enemy are not too hard to figure out. You are yourself, your knowledge, your abilities, your tools, your attitude, your experience, your skills, your strength to never give up. Your enemy is anything that stands in your way of completing your goals successfully, whether that goal is a mission objective or just plain survival of the confrontation.

The environment, however, is a very complex subject, and can include other people, bystanders and such. Knowledge, experience, and understanding of the environment is of such importance that it can become the deciding factor.

Now given the environment of the streets, what methodologies (method 1 or method 2) are best for self-defense and why?

And finally, to what extent does one method rely on the other to make it more effective. Yin and Yang seem opposites, but there is some Yin in Yang, and some Yang in Yin for either to work well. What components of method 1 are in method 2, and what components of method 2 are in method 1 to make them work better?
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline supertim2003

  • BlackBelt
  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • "That's going to leave a mark"
Re: Martial arts methologies in the street
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2005, 01:09:31 AM »
Hey Wado, I am not sure that I am on subject, but I think you might have hit it on the head at the end when you mentioned Yin Yang.  We know there are times when the technique that will put us in our comfort zone is also the technique that will cause the most damage.  I believe there is also a time for both methods, if we are talking about an injury that could prevent you from training I think its not a bad idea to walk before you run again.  I also fervently believe in training through some illnesses (colds) or aches and pains that occur due to training sore knees, back, and most other large joints.  I know a lot of people who will nurse the pains for weeks before they will continue there training.  Please elaborate if I am not on task here it sounds like you have given this a lot of thought and I am interested in hearing more.
Tim Morrow 1st Degree Black Sash Kajukenbo Tum Pai

Offline dastars

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Captain Law School
Re: Martial arts methologies in the street
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 12:06:42 PM »
I'd say it's highly situational.  If I'm being choked, or I've been otherwise ambushed and am placed at disadvantage, I'm going to "seek comfort" and at least get to even playing ground.  Once there, I would shift to damage-dealing mode, which best suits kajukenboists.  This is also what I would apply in a situation where I know a fight is immanent but I'm not at a disadvantage.

To build off of your examples and flesh out what I'm talking about;
Scenario 1 - I'm grabbed from behind and placed in a rear naked choke; priority 1 is to escape the choke, and I will do so in a way that minimizes the damage I take.  Probably just "wiggle out" rather than deal significant damage.  Once I'm out of immediate danger, I will then begin a counterattack, adjusting for whatever second maneuver my attacker may be attempting.

Scenario 2 - I'm in a bar fight situation and I see he's about to throw a punch; I will move to strike first, hard, and place blocking the punch as a second priority, focusing instead on "doing what is worst" for him and trusting that my speed will overcome any incidental impact from his continued motion if I miss the block.  From there I will continue the attack.

That's pretty general, and obviously environmental factors would be relevant (walls, neaby weapons, etc.).  By and large, my goal in self-defense is to survive - cosmetics and "looking good" while doing it are a distant second.  Whatever it takes to accomplish that goal is hte method I will apply.

In a nutshell, I'd say I'm a pragmatist rather than a Yin or a Yang, or a balancer :)
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline Wado

  • BlackBelt
  • Brown Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 529
  • llama llama
Re: Martial arts methologies in the street
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2005, 03:05:05 PM »
I was told one sad story about a bouncer that was killed when a small man dropped down and thrust a knife between the legs of the bouncer, cutting the Femoral arteries, one on the way in and reversing the the blade cutting the other on the way out. Like an assassination, the damage was done quickly and it was over.

How does anyone know the threat level of something like this without being educated of it and having the experience dealing with such attacks and of that environment?

Even with experience, there have been cultures where it is acceptable to thrust a knife into the thigh of someone you have an "issue with" so long as you do not try to kill that person such as cutting arteries or hitting vital organs.

How does one deal with a weapon wielding society? How does one learn to assess threat and opportunity correctly for any given environment, context, and situation?

I agree that assessing threat and opportunity is something gained through experience. I remember the first time I wrestled against someone much stronger and faster than me. I was picked up off the ground and stacked in less than two seconds. I had tried to pull guard on him.

I learned that as a priority for me, I should be doing what it takes to screw up the enemy, attacking the attack, unbalancing them, controlling their delivery system. IMO, this to me is where the "do what is worst for the enemy" and the "seek comfort" methodologies overlap. Where they differ is in threat level, a strong immediate threat level must be dealt with immediately "seeking your own comfort" and a neutralized threat creates the potential of other threats, pre-empt those potential threats "doing what is worst for the enemy" to overwhelm them and shutdown their ability to hurt you.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline guarded

  • BlackBelt
  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 250
  • He who hesitates, meditates; horizontally!
Re: Martial arts methologies in the street
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2005, 08:43:12 PM »
I too believe it is highly situational.  I think the other factor is ones awareness level and the ability to read situations. There are too many people that have jobs as security personel/bouncers etc. that have no idea what it takes to really defend yourself or others.  The most important factor to me is being able to read a situation and difusing it before you need to resort to physical action.  That is a martial art in iitself.  So basically, if you can read the situation and react before you are in physical danger method 1.  If you are put in a situation where you are forced to defend yourself without warning then it sounds like method 2 is the way to go.  Like previously mentioned there is the Yin Yang principle, an exception to every rule.
Jerry Guard
Kajukenbo Tum Pai Brown/Black Sash under Prof. Steve Larson          My everyday stance is my fighting stance.  My fighting stance is my everyday stance.

Offline Kajuken06

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Martial arts methologies in the street
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2005, 04:03:47 PM »
I think there is a basic equasion to this...

You cannot use method 2 effectively and safely without having a good idea of the entire situation. Method 2 must be used with utmost confidance and without hesitation.

Method 1 can get you to a point to quickly asses both the threat(s) and environment. Thus flowing from method 1 directly into method 2.

Example:

I would gladly (and have gladly) exchange a hit to my mid section to get in a good strike to some vital area in the head. (eyes, throat, mastroid gland ect.) and take the guy out semi-perminantly and quickly with maybe a minor bruise or at the absolute worst a broken rib. Clearly Method 2. But if I were attacked suddenly and did not know whether or not the assailant had a knife or any other weapon, method 2 would be a very wild gamble to take at that point.

I am not so sure that they would over lap though. It seems to me you would go from one, to the other and vise/versa. Sometimes getting comfortable might entale something that just so happens to be worst for the opponent but that would be a coincidence and a rare one at that. It is situational but if you know yourself, the enemy and the environment Method 2 seems to be the best way to go almost everytime. And the other way around if you do not have all of those factors in prospective then use method one until you do. Then switch and finish him off.

Well thats my 2 centsĀ  :)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 04:09:22 PM by Kajuken06 »
Loran Kelley
Brown Belt
Kajukenbo/Wun Hop Kun Do
Marquez Martial Art Accademy(Side Kicks Martial Arts)
Instructor: Sifu Andy Marquez
Fairfield, CA