Author Topic: Rank... and the importance others place on it  (Read 7235 times)

Offline dastars

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Captain Law School
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2005, 11:58:50 PM »
Thank you all for your replies.  Sam and I have been totally forthcoming to all the members of the Club, few as they may be now, and all of them were understanding of the situation.  I must confess I'm rather surprised by the tone of some of the responses, however, particularly to "bow down" and stop teaching.  We were given the blessing of our Sigung to organize a club, and I don't understand how members here who have never met or trained with myslf or Sam can make the determination of our fitness as teachers or demonstrators of the art.  However, I understand that there are concerns of propriety, and as such, I will be discussing the issue of whether to continue as a "Kajukenbo" club with the members and Sam.

@Mr. Evans - thank you for your kind words.  Last semester I was one of "those guys" always studying, but this term I learned balance, and having the time to train again has been a great outlet and stress reliever.  I'm nowhere near the top of my class, but I still managed to secure an internship for the summer with a judge here in Pittsburgh, so I'd say I'm doing okay :)  I would love to have the oppertunity to train if you're ever in the neighborhood - by all means let me know.
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

profthommorris

  • Guest
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2005, 09:43:34 PM »
Mr Hurd,

           The style you are talking about was taught by Sr. Grand Master Joe Halbuna. I know that Professor Andrae has it all written down in a simple way to understand and learn. You would stil have to be tested and approved by your teachers choice of recognized instructors, I have always had faith in Professor Andrae and my teacher taught him well. When everything said and done you will still have to be tested.

           Never be embarrassed that it took you so long to get your rank and always remember you have to earn your rank in KAJUKENBO.

                                                                      Professor Thom Morris

Offline Mitch Powell

  • Senior Black Belt
  • Brown Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2005, 11:26:54 PM »
Dastars,
I've looked at this from every angle and want to put this out there.

1. I totally agree with Sigung Bishop, if your partner has a black belt in a certain style, use that as what you teach. Neither one of you should be using the name Kajukenbo to teach under, since you are not certified to do so.

2. I would not be opposed to your partner promoting you up to say a brown belt in one of the arts that he holds a black belt in, as long as you can demonstrate the necessary skill level. That's something you guys can work out without any cost to you and at a time that works with your schedules. There is nothing wrong with a brown belt assistant instructor.

3. You can use the words "Self Defense" and teach a lot of things, even the Kajukenbo you know. Just don't call your school a Kajukenbo school until you have earned the right to do so and don't call yourself a Kajukenbo instructor.

Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not saying we don't want you with us. We enjoy all those that train with us. We call that our Ohana-family. However, when you call yourself a Kajukenbo instructor, you put yourself in a category that includes people like GM Bautista, GM Davis, Gm Sotelo, GM Shin, GM Gaylord, GM Iverson, GM Kinji, GM Forbach, GM Dela Cruz, GM Dacascos, GM Louis, GM Kananna, GM Reyes, the rest of Kajukenbo's GMs, professors, sigungs, 5th degrees, 4th degrees, and 3rd degrees. Those are the people who are authorized to teach Kajukenbo. Those are the people you would stand next to at a Kajukenbo event. Those are your fellow Kajukenbo teachers!

I went through hell to get my black belt. Then I went through hell to get my Instructor's certificate. Although I have had a great career in law enforcement, I have never considered myself a cop who does martial arts. I am a martial artist-a Kajukenboist who does police work. What Kajushodan was trying to say is until you are ready and able to make the commitment to Kajukenbo, you will not get what you want from the art or it from you.

Here, off the top of my head from a couple of decades ago is what I was tested on for Instructor Level:

Kajukenbo pinans 1-12, plus modified pinans 1-5
Concentration forms 1-21
Naihanchi kata shodan and nidan
Traditional (Okinawan) pinans nidan and yondan
Gung fu forms: Crane, bat, tiger, monkey and butterfly
Twentyfive man attack form
Punch defense 1-30
Grab defense 1-30
Adavanced grab 1-10
Special defense 1- 5 (grabs from the rear)
Two man attacks 1-8 (right and left sides)
Three man attacks (3 sets)
Four man attack- which I had to make up
Knife defense 1-10
Club defense 1-10
Fight 4 people beginning with one and adding another every 60 seconds
Board breaking with hands and feet, plus my instructor broke boards over my head while I sat in meditation.

That's 48 forms, 115 techniques-which is really many more because some techniques have an a, b and sometimes c application, fighting four people plus board breaking. Only after successfully passing did I receive my teacher's blessing and certification to teach Kajukenbo. Others were not so lucky. My teacher had no problem failing students. Six months earlier he failed four brown belts testing for black. Think I knew what was on the line?

Since that time I have learned a second method of Kajukenbo that includes:
Palama Sets 1-14
Punch 1-21
Grab 1-15
Knife 1-15
Club 1-13
2-man 1-8
3 man 1-6
Alphabets 1-26

That's 14 more forms plus 83 techniques-which actually works out to 108 with the a,b, and c applications. Are you ready to be called a Kajukenbo instructor?

4. It looks like you have too much on your plate and have some obsticles that are preventing you from earning rank in Kajukenbo. Perhaps in time you will not be so busy and will have more resources. Be a great lawyer, enjoy learning the arts, have fun training, and don't worry so much about being an instructor. If someone wants to learn what you have to offer, show them. You don't need to be an instructor to help others. You do need to be an instructor to teach Kajukenbo.

There are teachers out there that will take you under their wing and promote you without testing you. Unfortunately, they are fakes. You will find them if you look hard enough. If they promote you, you will not have any credibility in the Kajukenbo community. I know you don't want that. It's no different than than someone at the Bar handing you your law degree right now. Earning it is what counts. Wanting to earn it is just one of the many steps in the process.

5. Could you provide what curriculum you teach from Kajukenbo so we can tell you how much traditional knowledge you actually have? That should be something that you would want to know. Let's see what your teacher has taught you so far?

None of what I wrote was meant to make you feel bad. It sounds like you are a very nice person trying to do as much as you can, but have a lot on your plate. Many of us can relate.

Mitch
Powell's MMA Academy (KSDI#549)
Grandmaster Mitch Powell (Emperado Method)
(707) 344-1655  coachmitchpowell@hotmail.com

Offline dastars

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Captain Law School
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2005, 11:54:25 PM »
The curriculum we inherited from Sigung Andrae is comprised of the following:

21 Standing (natural stance) punch defenses
21 Covers (fighting stance) punch defenses
21 Grab defenses
21 Club defenses
21 Rolls (though at the moment they are undergoing revision and editing with one of Sigung Andrae's 3d degree students)
12 Pinans + 2 Position Excercises + 1 weapon form
A set of basics; blocks, strikes, judo techniques, etc.

Also on the Requirements sheet is a row for knife defenses, though there are no techniques at this time.  Sigung Andrae gave Sam permission to work on a set of these defenses as a black belt thesis project.

I have tested on the first pinan and numbers 1-3 of Covers, Standings, Clubs and Grabs by Sigung Andrae, in addition to some alternatives/extensions and other 'fun' stuff we did in class.  From Sam and informal training with Sigung Andrae over Christmas break, I have added two more pinans, and numbers 4-9 in each of the sets, with a few of the higher techniques as well.  I am also able to perform and demonstrate the 12 knife defenses that Sam has developed, though they are of course unofficial until Sigung Andrae gives his approval of the completed set.

The reason we decided to call the club and what we taught kajukenbo was three-fold.  First, the University is saturated with Taekwondo and Judo, with longstanding clubs and dojos in the area.  These are two of the disciplines where Sam has instructor status, so it would not be an issue to start a club, but lots of toes would be stepped on.  We sought to avoid this.  The second reason is that kajukenbo is the art I started with, and the art we both enjoy the most, and wish to share with others.  The third reason is that kajukenbo as a philosophy allows for a greater amount of flexibility and addition in what is taught, making it more accessible to people with pre-existing foundations of martial arts training, which were the type of people we had gotten to join us in training.  We found that being able to show judo and TKD practicioners more "practical" aspects of their arts got their attention and interest up, and they wished to learn more.

This issue unfortunately may have become moot, as interest in the club has been dwindling in recent weeks, as finals and summer vacation are approaching, and with the consideration that Sam will be moving out of the area.  Given the likelihood of the club outright disbanding, I am no longer as concerned with the 'public face' of my rank, and so much of the question I originally posed will be moot.  I have considered the option you suggested of training to receive a brown belt in another art in order to present my "self defense and the law" seminar, and this is the most likely path I will follow, barring an change to study and train for a longer period than a few days with Sigung Andrae this summer.

Again I thank you all for your considered responses.  I would never attempt to pass myself off as an expert or anything more than I was with kajukenbo, and each of the members of the club were aware of the circumstances.  At no point were Sam or myself planning on doing promotions, or anything of that nature, since we were both aware that there was still a formal step or two between our informal instruction of a university club and being full instructors.  I hope I did not present myself as overly cocky or oblivious to the hard work that yourself and other Professors/GMs/sigungs/sibaks have put into the art and their own development.  I fully intend to put in that work myself to one day join those ranks.  Until then I had only hoped to spread our art, as well as improve my own skills both of kajukenbo as well as instructing the martial arts and self defense.

@Prof. Morris - do you know or train with Sigung Andrae?  I believe you are the first to immediately recognize his name on this forum, which is not surprising given the fact that he is in Georgia and from what I understand, doesn't often get the chance to make it out West.
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline John Bishop

  • Senior Black Belt
  • Black Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 2605
  • Seek Knowledge, Not Rank
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2005, 12:58:53 AM »
Dashers,
If your not already aware of it, SGM Halbuna did produce video tapes of the techniques he taught.  These were produced and distributed by Pacific Rim Publishing. 
http://www.martialartsmart.net/tc-jh001.html
Since Sigung Walt was a student of SGM Halbuna, these tapes would help you during the times you can't get on the mat training with Sigung Walt.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 01:33:58 AM by John Bishop »
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline dastars

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Captain Law School
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2005, 10:26:36 AM »
Thank you Professor Bishop - I had searched around for something like that, but somehow managed to miss that set. 

Now all I have to do is find some money...  :-\
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline Chief Instructor

  • Moderators
  • Brown Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 725
    • Hokkien Martial Arts
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2005, 06:41:22 PM »
Mr. Hurd aka Dacstars,

I apologize for misspelling your name earlier. Anyway, I forgot to mention that a former student of mine works at the lawschool in Harrisburg, PA. He's a little rusty but when you have an event, I'll try to put you in touch.  If I'm ever in the area, I'll try to stop by. Although you and Sam feel alone out there, you got a big family. It's the Kaju way- we help each other.

BTW, Justice Harold "Herd" was my favorite Kansas Supreme Court Justice.

Take care,
Andrew
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com

Offline dastars

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Captain Law School
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2005, 06:44:07 PM »
Mr. Hurd aka Dacstars,

I apologize for misspelling your name earlier. Anyway, I forgot to mention that a former student of mine works at the lawschool in Harrisburg, PA. He's a little rusty but when you have an event, I'll try to put you in touch.  If I'm ever in the area, I'll try to stop by. Although you and Sam feel alone out there, you got a big family. It's the Kaju way- we help each other.

BTW, Justice Harold "Herd" was my favorite Kansas Supreme Court Justice.

Take care,
Andrew

Hopefully on your next reply to me, you can get both my last name and screen name spelled correctly  :P

Glad to hear there's more kajukenbo presence here in PA - hopefully we can all get together at some point.

I don't believe I've read any of J. Herd's opinions, though I did have the odd coincidence of reading a J. Hurd's opinion from the NY Court of Appeals while doing research for a mock advice letter on CERCLA/Superfund.  Was very strange to see 'Justice Hurd' without thinking "yeah, that could be me..."  8)
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline badsifu

  • restricted
  • Brown Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 971
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2005, 09:09:08 AM »
I have been away from the computer, so I am a bit late in the discussion.  However, I see nothing wrong with doing Kajukenbo basics with that level of experience.  As you said, having a black belt doesn't mean you will be exposed to a quality education.  Calling what you do Kajukenbo would be fine in my opinion as well.  Those are your roots, so why say some other style?  Be honest with your rank and your experience with your students and there should be no problem.  When you have the opportunity, you should make the effort to continue your education - not just for you, but for your students.

My opinions tend to go against the grain here with the others, but here are a few examples of color belts teaching and even opening their own dojo:

Ed Parker was a brown belt when he opened his dojo in So. Cal.  There were no Kenpo schools and he felt that there was a need for good self-defense.
Bruce Lee wasn't an instructor's rank when he left Hong Kong and started teaching in America.
Sijo often had color belts teaching at his schools in Oahu.

One other point:  One of the best ways to learn is to share.  Sharing your knowledge with someone else forces you to understand those techniques at a different level.  My students start sharing as soon as possible.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline dastars

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Captain Law School
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2005, 10:56:23 AM »
Thanks badsifu - while I don't dare compare myself to Parker or Lee, the precedent is encouraging :)  After some discussions with students, we've pretty much decided just to have an open training session on a regular basis, where Sam and I can share judo, kajukenbo, whatever, and other students can share what they know (one guy is proficient in Kali/Escrima, Jun Fan and Thai kickboxing).  It will probably make for interesting and bruise-filled evenings, but I think as a whole our martial arts will improve and we will all learn something (and teach something, and learn how to teach...).  Plus it avoids any of the possile misrepresentation that some of the posters here have expressed concerns about.

One day I'll have the time and access to an instructor, and I'll be a happy camper.  Patience was never one of my virtues, however :(
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2005, 11:12:44 AM »
Open training is always fun, and usually filled with good knowledge exchange, good luck with that....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Jerry Weldon

  • BlackBelt
  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Battle Ground Martial Arts Center
    • Battle Ground Martial Arts Center
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2005, 10:15:33 PM »
Martial arts ranks have to be earned under a legitimate teacher. That teacher must be someone who has earned rank under a legitimate teacher. When I started training in 1974 a black belt represented years of grueling training and major mental and spiritual growth. Rank should represent the level of training and skill of a practitioner. Leave the teaching to the teachers. Attain legitimate rank and be a strong example of martial arts training.

Respectfully,
              Jerry Weldon
Sifu Jerry Weldon
Senior Chief Instructor
Northern Tum Pai, Yang & Ng (Wu) Tai Chi and Paqua
Battle Ground Martial Arts Center
Battle Ground Washington

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Rank... and the importance others place on it
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2005, 04:56:43 PM »
It is great to have a legitimate teacher, with rank and skill. Then you have a path to follow and a family to be in. Sometimes they are hard to find depending on where you live and who you know.  I have taught boxing for over 20 yrs, I don't have a black belt in it of course since they don't exist.  Sometimes training is just training.  On the other hand I would never tell one of my students they were an expert in boxing either...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision