Author Topic: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms  (Read 48749 times)

Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2010, 07:26:19 PM »
Professor Bono was not asking a question to the public.
he was telling us how (Grandmaster Gaylord) answered the question.
seems to me like Grandmaster Gaylord gave the same answer that Sijo would have given.
maybe some of you do not agree with the likes of Sijo and Grandmaster Gaylord.
but thats ok, as Kajukenbo students we have the right to be different.
with all do respect

Harper
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2010, 08:17:41 PM »
mr bono i was giving you a hypothrtically back! what i would due! if that was the case.

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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2010, 08:30:56 PM »
Good point GM Harper
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2010, 08:45:03 PM »
 no one is saying that gaylord or sijos wrong so i dont were thats coming from so lets not put words in anybodys mouth! and abought sijo i never trianed with him mr harper knows him better than i would but with gaylord i have been under him for 30 years and in the early days he trianed us hard and you needed to learn both and he would not give you a black belt becouse you were a good fighter! but agin that was in the early days.

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p.s. mr h like i said today to many cheer leaders!
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #79 on: February 25, 2010, 08:49:46 PM »
Things progress over the years it just depends on the teacher, I took privates from GGMG for the last decade and he worked both, but his opinion on what was important to him at that point was clear.
......I'm sure it changed in the almost 6 decades he watch the art grow...
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2010, 08:58:58 PM »
mr bono i have to agree with you 100% grand master gaylord did change thing since the early days back then we waited 5,6 years befor our next degree!

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Tim Vargas

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2010, 10:26:13 PM »
Forms were important to GGM Gaylord just as much as fighting, I dont think anyone can say otherwise.  It sounds like some want to down play forms, whatever, but GGM G thought forms were important to the point to not only adding his own flavor to the forms in those early years, but was in the process of RE-WORKING ALL the forms, as he was giving bits and pieces at his workouts and did say that not too long before his untimely death.  It was also said that Sijo did not say to NOT teach the forms,but DID say to perform the first three!  He didnt say NOT to teach any!

Remember, this is only the "tip of the iceberg".

So, is there a point were Kajukenbo stops being Kajukenbo?  Is it reduced simply to a name or claim to lineage?  What are the new requirements for one to claim to be Kajukenbo?  And again, if there are either 3 or NO forms taught, what are the criteria for rank?   If there will be an MMA (UFC style) branch (which Sijo did not do), will there be a need for rank? And if there is, what will the ranking requirements be?  Every branch as far as I know have criteria for rank.  Perhaps these could be answered at the next meeting?

I hope no-one looses sleep over these questions, but are important to ME. 

Thanks again.


Tim


Offline xGUMOx

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2010, 12:17:45 AM »
A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT TRADITION AND REMEMBERING YOUR ROOTS BUT I KNOW SEVERAL BLACK BELTS RANGING FROM BLACK UP TO 5TH DEGREE THAT DONT EVEN KNOW WHO SIJO IS!!! >:( THEY DONT KNOW ANY HISTORY AT ALL.

EXAMPLE 1:
I WAS WATCHING THE INTERVIEW WITH SIJO THAT PROF. BISHOP DID ONE DAY AFTER TRAINING WITH SOME OF MY STUDENTS. A 2ND DEGREE BLACK BELT CAME TO VISIT AND THEY ASKED WHY WE WERE WATCHING THE DVD AND "WHO THE HELL IS THAT TALKING"? I WANTED TO PUNCH THEM IN THE MOUTH BUT REALIZED IT WASNT THERE FAULT, ITS THE INSTRUCTORS FAULT!
 
EXAMPLE 2:
I WAS TALKING STORY WITH A 5TH DEGREE ONE DAY AND THE HISTORY OF KAJUKENBO CAME UP. HE TOLD ME HE WAS NEVER TAUGHT ANY HISTORY AT ALL. ALL THE HISTORY THAT WAS TAUGHT WAS ABOUT HIS INSTRUCTOR AND HIS FAMILY! HE SAID HE NEVER SEEN A PICTURE OF SIJO UNTIL HE LOOKED IT UP ON THE INTERNET!!! WTF!!! >:(

THESE ARE THE INSTRUCTORS THAT ARE RUINING THE SYSTEM. IN MY OPINION THESE TWO EXAMPLES ARE WORSE THAN SOMEONE THAT DOES NOT TEACH FORMS!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 12:20:40 AM by xGUMOx »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2010, 12:27:29 AM »
Tim I was the one at his house reworking the forms, punch and grab arts and the reason was for simplicity and to be more direct to relate them to fighting.  It was Esther and I going over them and then we would present them at the KAA workouts.....
GM John E Bono DC
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Tim Vargas

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2010, 02:00:43 AM »
Tim I was the one at his house reworking the forms, punch and grab arts and the reason was for simplicity and to be more direct to relate them to fighting.  It was Esther and I going over them and then we would present them at the KAA workouts.....

Prof. Bono,

All I can say is what I heard and saw.  GGM G said HE was rworking the forms and DID teach them at the class I am talking about, YOU or Sifu Esther were not leading his portion of the class at that time.  He also did mention that through time he has found easier ways of accomplishing the same results, and find it hard to believe that he had no part in reworking the forms, especially when he said the opposite.   I am not denying your envolvement in the reworking of the forms, but only can comment on what I heard and saw.  

Thanks for your posts, anything to add to my questions in my last post?

Take it easy.


Tim
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 02:06:40 AM by Tim Vargas »

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2010, 07:39:03 AM »

  WAS TALKING STORY WITH A 5TH DEGREE ONE DAY AND THE HISTORY OF KAJUKENBO CAME UP. HE TOLD ME HE WAS NEVER TAUGHT ANY HISTORY AT ALL. ALL THE HISTORY THAT WAS TAUGHT WAS ABOUT HIS INSTRUCTOR AND HIS FAMILY! HE SAID HE NEVER SEEN A PICTURE OF SIJO UNTIL HE LOOKED IT UP ON THE INTERNET!!! WTF!!! THESE ARE THE INSTRUCTORS THAT ARE RUINING THE SYSTEM. IN MY OPINION THESE TWO EXAMPLES ARE WORSE THAN SOMEONE THAT DOES NOT TEACH FORMS!


I definitely agree with this statement. I often wonder - there seems to be certain contention right now with some folks over forms and possibly other things that they feel should be standardized wthhin their particular branch etc... why these things were not as contintious or worked out whenever SIJO was still with us I guess I'll never be privy to know but am really starting to figure out. Is it that they were really not big issues at all as far as SIJO was concerned and that instructors were doing what they wanted to do anyway? And that SIJO for the most part understood and was OK with it? What makes things different now?

I agree also in part with Tim as regards the next meeting and the importance of setting a standardization agenda and if it should even be an issue at all.

Pat
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2010, 09:59:19 AM »
Humbly, I'd like to suggest that if we consider forms to be the defining factor of what makes something Kajukenbo, then 3 of the branches (Chu'an Fa, Tum Pai, and WHKD) could be excluded from Kajukenbo, depending on where the bar is.  In WHKD, we teach the Palama Set #1-4 as one form linked together, but that is it.  None of the other Pinions from the Original Method are in our system, and what makes WHKD WHKD is not the forms; many of the other forms we learn are traditional kung fu forms not exclusive to the art. 

Rather, I think what defines Kajukenbo (and WHKD) is the blending of various martial arts styles (mixed martial arts), and the ability to adapt to situations and defend yourself.

Finally, some people here seem to have a strong dislike for Kajukenbo being involved in MMA, and I would ask why this is.  Kajukenbo is a fighting art that is a mix of system.  Students like to compete in their hobbies, but Kaju is poorly suited to the standard martial arts tournaments of point fighting.  MMA, while not for everyone, allows those people who are truly dedicated to compete in an environment as close to a real fight as is possible, and to test their skills.  It seems like a great marriage to me, and something we should embrace, not scorn.
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2010, 10:01:08 AM »
This post is a good example of how different we are.
So now what?
Do we waste time arguing about who is right?
I don’t care to be a monk seeking the ancient Chinese secrets.
But there are those that do and I’m fine with that.
I have many good friends that are very deep in to that part of the art.

Some of the elders thought it was fine to say I don’t like the way the original forms were done so I will modify them to make them better.
If it’s not the original way then is that not a change in our history and tradition.
Or do we have a new start of tradition with each branch or instructor?
If everyone is doing different forms depending on which instructor you are under then what’s the point of saying Kajkenbo history and tradition.
It’s all modified history and tradition.

I do teach the forms but they are just not that important at my school.
I have been stirring up this post to get you all involved.
But to tell the truth most people are stubborn and don’t care to listen to anything except what’s set in their own mind.

I think the forms should be taught.
But they should be taught the original Emperado way if you are going to use the terms Kajukenbo history and tradition.
Then you can modify them after that to fit your needs.
When I teach in my class I will always show the original way I was taught and then I will show the way I like to do it.
That way I do not forget the TRUE history and tradition
The elders may have modified the forms but they also knew the original way.
Do you?

To finish up here I will say that yes we should teach the forms.
I just don’t care for them
Harper
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2010, 10:04:24 AM »
Jason I agree with you on the MMA thing.
Kajukenbo is MMA
it's just that most of the kajukenbo people that say they like to bang are full of it.
how many of you ever heard Sijo say
rules? what rules? just knock em out!
Harper
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 10:08:48 AM by Ghost Rider »
Greg Harper
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allen73

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2010, 10:19:43 AM »
SGM Parker had a great quote that I think would fit this post. "Knowledge is bound where tradition begins and tradition is bound where knowledge begins". As I said in an earlier post my system of Kajukenbo doesn't teach the Palamas, does that make me less of a Kajukenbo practioner? I don't think so. Also, I see many folks preaching about tradition whatever happen to addressing people by title you know like Grandmaster Harper being Grandmaster and Professor Bono being Professor and not Mr.Aloha.