Author Topic: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms  (Read 48753 times)

handsofstone23

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2010, 10:21:04 AM »
I don't think mma is as close to REAL combat as you can get. MMA is a sport, just like football or baseball. MMA has weight classes, unlike real combat, rules, unlike real combat, a ref, unlike real combat, only 2 fighters, unlike real combat, no weapons, unlike real combat, no risk of jail time, unlike real combat, and the risk of death is low, unlike real combat.

On another note, I am glad to see so many different points of view. That's what Kaju is all about. As long as things don't get taken personally then its a very healthy process. When it becomes a who said what and who said that, that doesn't really matter. If Sijo said he only put forms in the system so it would be taken as a legitimate art then good. That doesn't take away from the benifits they offer. And if they don't provide anything useful to you then don't do them. I think the main point is, if it helps and works for you then good. If not, then that's fine too.   

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2010, 11:08:08 AM »
I don't think mma is as close to REAL combat as you can get. MMA is a sport, just like football or baseball. MMA has weight classes, unlike real combat, rules, unlike real combat, a ref, unlike real combat, only 2 fighters, unlike real combat, no weapons, unlike real combat, no risk of jail time, unlike real combat, and the risk of death is low, unlike real combat.


Let me clarify the "as you can get."  It's as close as you can get in a competitive environment without the risk of going to jail.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2010, 11:13:47 AM »


I think the forms should be taught.
But they should be taught the original Emperado way if you are going to use the terms Kajukenbo history and tradition.
Then you can modify them after that to fit your needs.
When I teach in my class I will always show the original way I was taught and then I will show the way I like to do it.
That way I do not forget the TRUE history and tradition
The elders may have modified the forms but they also knew the original way.
Do you?

To finish up here I will say that yes we should teach the forms.
I just don’t care for them
Harper


That's a good question GM Harper.  The forms I know I teach as I was taught.  I believe (based on comparing what I learn to videos, etc) that the Palama set 1-4 I teach are the same as were handed down from Sijo to Sid and then to GM Al, and finally me.  However, I also  know that I don't know everything from the Original Method; the grab arts in WHKD are somewhat different from the original grab arts, for example.  Does that make me not Kaju?  I personally feel I am Kaju.  Sijo sanctioned the 4 branches long ago, and I am part of one of those 4 branches.  Now, can just anyone make a branch and call it Kaju?  I think that when Sijo was alive he had the authority to make branches and he saw fit, but now that he has passed on, it is up to the senior leadership to define that process.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
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Tim Vargas

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2010, 11:38:55 AM »
"That's a good question GM Harper.  The forms I know I teach as I was taught.  I believe (based on comparing what I learn to videos, etc) that the Palama set 1-4 I teach are the same as were handed down from Sijo to Sid and then to GM Al, and finally me.  However, I also  know that I don't know everything from the Original Method; the grab arts in WHKD are somewhat different from the original grab arts, for example.  Does that make me not Kaju?  I personally feel I am Kaju.  Sijo sanctioned the 4 branches long ago, and I am part of one of those 4 branches.  Now, can just anyone make a branch and call it Kaju?  I think that when Sijo was alive he had the authority to make branches and he saw fit, but now that he has passed on, it is up to the senior leadership to define that process."

I am ALL FOR MMA (UFC Style) fighting in Kajukenbo, there is NO WHERE you can find to where I said otherwise.  Heck, I think we SHOULD HAVE been the FIRST to get it going, but is NOT TOO LATE.  Kajukenbo have many good fighters in all branches, but I personally would like to see another branch SPECIALIZING in it.  As you stated, Sijo has passed on, but he did leave groundwork on what it takes to make a branch, etc.  I dont know if Grandmaster Harper has even thought about it or not, BUT I see that branch, and would be nice to get those highrankers to start the ground work so that NO ONE can say anything later.   Why leave loose ends?  I am not that kind of person, so I am just helping the discussion along.  If it works great, if not, well, I can say at least I felt my questions were relevant.

As for forms.  In all of the existing branches, forms are done, whether you do pinians/palama sets or monkey man forms to tai chi.  Does that mean any other branch in the future would also have to teach forms?  NOT beyond the Three Palama Sets *required* by Sijo.  The sport MMA guys have no rank in the ring, there are no belts, they do no forms in the ring, its all about who wins.  Everyone of their fighters train hard, but there will always be winners and losers in the sport, but doesnt mean the one who lost sucks.  It just means there is another day to change the out come.   I do have alot of thoughts on the subject, but have had little time due to my newborn son being born prematurely and is in the hospitial.  So, this is my last post on the subject.   I am all for unity in Kaju. , but I believe to squash any and all mumbling in the future, a definate BRANCH of sport MMA should be established.

Thanks.

Tim

P.S.  This is my OWN opinion and speak for no one, nor do I represent anyone but MYSELF.
 
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 02:50:43 AM by Tim Vargas »

Offline Danjo

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2010, 11:45:12 AM »
It seems to me that when Sijo said his last official thing on forms (everyone should know the first three), that he was saying two things: 1) Keep enough for unity's sake and 2) don't put your emphasis on them. Thanks again to GM Harper and the rest who have been straight up and forthright about what they have been told and shown. This is the kind of discussion that really makes for a stronger art. Everyone knows where everyone stands and no one is left out.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2010, 11:54:27 AM »
So, is there a point were Kajukenbo stops being Kajukenbo? To me if you learned Kaju for a qualified Kaju teacher you are kaju no matter what.....it is a very diverse art

 Is it reduced simply to a name or claim to lineage? I don't think so everyone has their own path

 What are the new requirements for one to claim to be Kajukenbo? again, maybe we all have no way as way...

 And again, if there are either 3 or NO forms taught, what are the criteria for rank? you as an Instructor determine that for your students.....though I have to admit I would have GGMG qualify students I was thinking of promoting....but in reality he always said that I held them back to long.....he used to say when you were that rank did you know all they know now....good point I thought

  If there will be an MMA (UFC style) branch (which Sijo did not do), will there be a need for rank? I think Kaju is a mixed art very clearly...though I am not that keen on the term now that I see  people with just months of training feel like they are expert fighters, because they call themselves MMA.....it's watered down, especially in certain areas of the country

Also Tim on the portion of class you were talking about I would have been assisting him since it was his stuff to teach....I missed 2-3 workouts in the past 12 yrs and trained at his house and he came to my school so when he was heading in a direction I knew because he needed someone to bounce things off of...........of course many times it was his fist......you know that jade ring story and my forehead I'm sure... ;D
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2010, 11:56:02 AM »
GM Harper I believe you are right on the stubborn mentally of many.......many can't see the forest because of all the trees.....hopefully that will change someday...
GM John E Bono DC
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2010, 12:11:43 PM »
Thank you,
To all of you I will (NOT) say now you see it my way.
but I will say we are talking and makeing ground as brothers and sisters.
this is how we understand what each other are thinking.
this is how we grow closer.
this is how we make Kajukenbo strong.
I like the MMA brach thing but I also feel now that Sijo is gone Kajukenbo should be left as is.
Dont get me wrong I would love to be involved in that and I feel in my heart that Sijo would say yeah go for it.
He loved what I do in my school and he loved the go for broke attitude, he was the king of that.
but Sijo is not here and making a new branch of any kind without his ok would just open an even bigger can of worms.
I would also like to say that I feel this has been one of the most productive talks here on the cafe that I have been involved in
Thank you

Harper
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #98 on: February 26, 2010, 12:30:05 PM »
I agree now that he is gone the branches should stay as they are...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #99 on: February 26, 2010, 12:34:08 PM »
grand master harper this was one of the best talks this cafe had we got everybody thinking! my teacher had a saying ( i see said the blind man ) he told me that when i was very young so for a long time i did not know what he meant becouse i was very young and did not care! but as i got older my eyes opened up and i understand what he meant! i think this saying fits this talk.


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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #100 on: February 26, 2010, 12:44:35 PM »
I wonder what Mitose was thinking when Chow opened his school and called what he taught kenpo-karate instead of kenpo jujitsu. I wonder what Chow was thinking when Emperado took Chow's kenpo-karate and added jujitsu/judo and boxing to it to create his own style. I wonder what Emperado was thinking when Ramos created his own style of kajukenbo, when Gaylord created his own style of kajukenbo, when Dacascos created his own style of kajukenbo. You can be mad at those who make changes or praise them for having the wisdom to develop something new and the passion to put in all the hard work that comes along with it. I've seen pictures of my grandfather riding in a covered wagon on his farm. I'm sure glad I don't have to ride that wagon to Oakland everyday to go to work!   
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Offline kfarny

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #101 on: February 26, 2010, 12:54:57 PM »
GM Harper,
I have to agree. This is a riveting discussion.  This is the kind of discussion that I imagine happened at the meeting in January. I still eagerly await a transcript of some kind related to the questions that were asked and answered there. I would hate to think that because I could not attend, I (and many others) will never know what was, or is being discussed at these meetings.
On this topic in particular: I think the four main braches are best left intact. That said, an "MMA Method" Kajukenbo seems viable.
on a related note, coming from the TumPai branch of this art, I do not know the original pinyons that Sijo taught. I am not sure I have even seen all of them. Although, through youtube and websites such as this I have seen a lot of the original art. I can point to something from another branch and say hey, I have that in my form or my grab art looks a lot like that. I have incorperated a lot of the things from other branches back into mine.(Mostly because the soft style of TumPai is not really suited to my being a big, oldish, slower guy.)
But I never got to meet Sijo. All I know of him is what others have said, written or posted in the form of video. I am forced to take what those who were there say he said or did.
It makes it very confusing for someone who has only been in this art for 6ish years or so. We as 4th, 5th, 6th generation students do not want to offend or step on toes by asking questions we want answers to without insulting you or Sijo. It haa become very difficult to get the history because it moves further away with each day. At some point it will be "my dad said that Sifu said that GM Harper said that GGM Gaylord said that Sijo said . . ." , and then we are in trouble. Maybe we need an official Kajukenbo historian? Sorry about my rambleing. Small text box on a Blackberry.

With respect to all,

Kirk
Kirk Farnsworth   3rd Degree,  East/West Method Tum Pai
East West Martial Arts, Master Doug Bertrand
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handsofstone23

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #102 on: February 26, 2010, 01:01:07 PM »
I think Grandmaster Gelinas is as close to a kajukenbo historian as we have. There are many things, documents, videos, stories, what have you, that are kept hidden and not shared. When more people such as Grandmaster Harper saying that Sijo said he only added forms for a specific purpose, I didn't know that. We need more of that in order for the history to be preserved. Be it good bad or ugly, it should come out.

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #103 on: February 26, 2010, 07:13:36 PM »
GM Harper,
I have to agree. This is a riveting discussion.  This is the kind of discussion that I imagine happened at the meeting in January. I still eagerly await a transcript of some kind related to the questions that were asked and answered there. I would hate to think that because I could not attend, I (and many others) will never know what was, or is being discussed at these meetings.
With respect to all,

Kirk

It's been several weeks since the January meeting.  I know there were more then a couple video cameras recording the meeting.

Is anyone interested in making copies of this meeting available to those who could not attend?  If no one has the equipment or time available to duplicate and mail out copies of the DVD, I will do it if you send a dvd or VHS tape of the meeting to me. 
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #104 on: February 26, 2010, 07:26:44 PM »
Thanks Professor Bishop. Hopefully someone can step up here. It would be great to have a copy for reference and posterity and in the future make arrangements to have someone tape everything at the next meeting.

pat
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