Author Topic: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms  (Read 48755 times)

Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2010, 10:02:58 PM »
mr harper its not personal to you! if thats the way you want to run you school or anybody else thats up to you! you said yourself sijo would say one thing then change it later. i never worked out with him i learned from grand master vargas and grand master gaylord and we alway did all the forms grb arts ect. so i trianed my students the way i learned and my black belts and so on! and i had black belts that did not want to learn the forms but if they wanted there rank they had to learn them or the art will not go on. lot of schools now are doing mma witch is good to learn but they are stoping the forms, becouse its in now and they makeing more money in the school doing mma. i just hate to see some school lose focas. if you can do both thats great!

                                    prof hemenes

p.s im having fun today going back in forth with you! it keeps me on my toes! 
GRAND MASTER HEMENES
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KOA MEMBER............

handsofstone23

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2010, 10:18:30 PM »
I never once said Sijo said they served a great purpose I said I think they do. If Sijo didn't think the were needed other than 1 2 and 3 then that's fine too. WHATEVA anybody wants to do is fine. We are not bound by what any man says to do on this planet. But that's not and never was my purpose in relpyling to this post. Not to dispute what Sijo wanted or said or anything of the sort, but rather to point out that in my point of view they (forms), be them traditional or shadowboxing, DO serve a valuble purpose. MY point of view.

Offline Danjo

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2010, 12:26:50 AM »

When Kajukenbo was developed martial arts systems had forms, so Sijo added forms to Kajukenbo. It’s that simple.
********************************************************

 That’s what I was looking for.
And what I heard also.
Thank you Grandmaster Powell.
Sijo told me that if he did not put forms in Kajukenbo that it would not be recognized as a  martial art system by others.
If not for that he would not have added them in
So that is why we have forms.
Not because Sijo liked them.
Sijo told me to teach the forms to the children.
And just make sure the adults have the first 3, other than that there is no need for forms.
We can all follow what we feel is right, I am just doing what the founder told me to do.
I will not try to explain his reasons to you as only he could do that properly.
I can not speak for him.
I can only tell you what he told me personally.
The thing is that you did not know that how I teach is exactly how Sijo Adriano D, Emperado told me to teach.
So now to the future, is this a subject we can talk about at the Kajukenbo unity meeting?

I wish you all the best

Greg Harper
Sijo’s revised techniques
 

GM Harper,

Thanks for the posts full of inside information that many of us aren't priveledged to otherwise.
"Rank Without Honor is Nothing."
Dan Weston
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FMAA
Don't tell me how much you honor Sijo, if you don't respect his wishes.

Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2010, 04:21:14 AM »
Like I said before nothing but love.
we all make our own choice and direction in life.
and who is to say who is wrong or right.
as long as we show respect to each other its fine to disagree.
short of death blows MMA is as close as one will get to a real test.
it will test your fitness, it will test your sack and it will test your skill.
the problem is that few martial artist's have all 3
its been fun, thanks for the tennis game and have a good day.

Harper
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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2010, 01:43:06 PM »
All positions are correct to your specific teaching or martial training, so,,,,what is correct?
Well I can quote everyone within this thread, and everyone has something to offer... I remember when my Father was a student, at that time the "Chief", would correct him for not having his leg straight or hand not tight enough! Was that knowledge or tuning his fighting skills?..Or this movement or that movment has to be done  this way or that in oder to increase the power of the movemnet, hips turned, leg straight, eyes focused, again was that knowledge or tuning his fighting skills?,,always critizing to make him better, stonger, and later in life "every short that it was" a "GREAT" Instructor, was that again for knowledge or his fighting skill?
Pinans is a way that  students can make themselves better, "without" the Instructor in the immediate area,,as my story earlier wether Emperado was teaching my Father at Palama or at our home. When he left ,,,,there was continous hours trying to accept the concepts that Emperado taught, working on himself or helping to teach me. The knowledge was emmense, the knowledge had to be written verbatim from the man himself, not because of the intensity of the physical training, but the complexity of the physical movements! Put to paper, or 8mm at that point. Whatever the media it was,,because that knowledge could not be trusted to memory alone. Take for instance, #1 Pinan the first 3 movements,,,,Outward Block, Downward Block, Inward Block or "running movements" or for a better word "sequencing"....The Attacker is another Martial Artist,,,moving on you with a punch/kick/punch combination..moving on you in rapid sucession..to a prelude to a rapid takedown!!!Kaj style.... so does that deminsh the form or "story"...no! The form has to be done accurately,stances has to be done correctly, and the intensity of block to strike has to be correct "That's KAJUKENBO!!!!.
It is when you have met the requirements of your particular "method" ie: Emperado Method, Gaylord Method, WHKD,Ramos Method, Halbuna, KMMA... that the knowledge or fighting skills are accomplished. Pinans or forms may or not be important requirement of your "method", it doesn't make it wrong. What is correct that you do everything you're taught, in thought, correctness, aggresiveness and with a thinking and lethal power.
Really good points today, the kowledge is growing,,April gathering is coming soon...
Maybe an analogy could be "KA-JU-KEN-BO" = "A-DAP-TA-TION"
with all due respect
GMReyes
SGM Alan M. Reyes
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Offline MARK GERRY

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2010, 02:16:57 PM »
I NEVER LIKED FORMS......I HAD TO LEARN FORMS AT BOB GAYLORD SCHOOL IN THE 1970s, THEN GM JOE HAD HIS OWN FORMS, ALL OF THE TKD GUYS I TRAINED WITH HAD THERE OWN FORMS AND PROFESSOR HEMENES HAD HIS KAJUKENBO FORMS AND GM ERIC LEE HAS A WHOLE LOT OF FORMS HE TEACHS!!!

THE LAST YEAR I HAVE BEEN TRAINING MOSTY THAI .......NEE....ELBOWS....LEG KICKS...AND STREET FIGHTING STUFF.....EYES , GROIN STRIKS AND KICKS. GM HARPER'S WAY...=)

BUT NOW I HAVE GRANDMASTER ERIC LEE LIVEING WITH ME..........WE ARE DOING FORMS EVERY DAY !!! :o

AND PROFESSOR HEMENES HAS BEEN TEACHING CLASS THE LAST FEW WEEKS TOO! :o

WHAT A GREAT TIME FOR ME AND MY STUDENTS........

GM ERIC LEE, PROFESSOR HEMENES, GM MAX PALLEN AND I AR GOING TO PI AND THAILAND FOR A MONTH!!!.....MARCH 18TH 2010....I DONT THINK WE WILL BE DOING FORMS IN THAILAND !!.....LOL
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do

sleddog

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2010, 05:30:30 PM »
Actually the Wai Kru and Ram Muay (formal dance/fight preparation) is a kind of form. All Traditional Muay Thai fighters have to do a variation of it before they fight. It pays respect to their school and teacher and is considered poor manners not to do it.

Have fun.

I will be in PI from the February 26th to March 11th for Kali training in Bacolod (Negros Island). Got to be warmer than here.

Offline KajuKel

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2010, 06:19:15 PM »
Thank you GM Harper, GM Powell and GM Reyes.  Great conversation and I appreciate the collective insight.  This place is always educational.  I hope to meet you all in person someday - I'm sure it will be even more enlightening.
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Offline Rich Cruz

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2010, 08:00:36 PM »
Hello everyone, I like this thread, it has been very informative for me,

I have always explained to my students that a martial artist / practitioner MUST establish a foundation and if you look a most of the styles out there, many of the training and conditioning drills are very similar.  To be a very good martial artist you should be well rounded (technician, teacher and a fighter) in my opinion.  Grand Master Bautista once told me that for the most part there are 3 types of martial artists; a technician (forms/kata/technique), teacher (gifted in teaching, able to express/explain things in different ways to get through to the student, patience and understanding) and a fighter (gifted in combat, natural ability enhanced by training, fortitude). Once in a while you will find someone who is good in two of the three mentioned areas, but very rarely you will find someone gifted in all three.  I think if you look at that alone and think for a while on the evolution of martial arts in all aspects of where we are today and how we got here, you will find many answers to the questions discussed in this thread.  I believe in teaching my student all that I have, to include forms (Palamas, Concentrations, and the more traditional Japanese and Chinese forms that we have in our system).  Granted when the student realizes how much there is to learn, when you also add techniques (grab, punch, knife, club, alphabets, step-ins, roll tricks, two man, three man, etc), ground fighting (and how not to stay there), stand up fighting (full contact, point, boxing, multiple attackers, etc), and not to mention the addition of the Philippine stick and knife training, it can often seem overwhelming to the student.  And yes it can be a challenge to the teacher, (just remember the foundation requirements).  I simply remind my students that Martial Arts/Kajukenbo should be more than a short term goal of achieving a black belt, it should be a way of life, something that is truly part of you, and when you keep that in mind you will find that it is a journey that really never ends and should not be limited to one way.  Belt progression may be a slow process but that should not be the primary reason for training.  Everything has a benefit and yes it does take time away from other areas you my like better, but if you look at it through the eyes of someone who is hungry for knowledge and having the desire to continually learn with no end in sight, there is always time to enjoy learning other principals and theories.

V/r Rich
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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2010, 05:25:27 PM »
To understand your interpretation is pure EMPERADO, as myself, your Insructors has again proven thru their knowledge, your endeavors is a lifelong commiment,I applaud you, and those who came before you.
with all due respect
GMReyes
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2010, 12:14:19 PM »
I understand that ther is a tradition of people performing Pians/Palama sets at the funerals of prominant Kajukenbo people. This tradition goes back at least to Joe Emperado as I recall hearing. My question is that if we don't teach the forms, how will this tradition continue? Clearly in this respect, it is more about unity than fighting ability, but still an important part of our heritage I think.
"Rank Without Honor is Nothing."
Dan Weston
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Don't tell me how much you honor Sijo, if you don't respect his wishes.

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2010, 12:20:22 PM »
I understand that ther is a tradition of people performing Pians/Palama sets at the funerals of prominant Kajukenbo people. This tradition goes back at least to Joe Emperado as I recall hearing. My question is that if we don't teach the forms, how will this tradition continue? Clearly in this respect, it is more about unity than fighting ability, but still an important part of our heritage I think.

If you dont teach the forms that particular tradition WILL DIE!  That is an easy way for a branch/twig to die out fast also. But from what I gather, everyone in KSDI would at least know the first 3.    

Just my opinon.


Tim

P.S. Tradition is like a fine rug that has many strands tightly woven together to serve a purpose.  When one starts to remove this tradition or that tradition, slowly but surely all you will have is a pile of yarn no longer recognizable as a rug  ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 12:24:25 PM by Tim Vargas »

Offline Sifu C

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2010, 06:12:22 PM »
Good day!

I have seen Palama Set #11 and one other I can not recall performed at a funeral or at the cemetery site.  Does anyone know why and where this tradition or practice came from?


With my respects,


Sifu C
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2010, 07:27:43 PM »
Good day!

I have seen Palama Set #11 and one other I can not recall performed at a funeral or at the cemetery site.  Does anyone know why and where this tradition or practice came from?


With my respects,


Sifu C

From what Sijo told me, Palama Set 11 was developed from the "Naihanchi" kata that Mitose taught.  It was known by all the kenpo people from the Mitose, Chow, Young, and Emperado schools. 
Since it was commonly performed at funerals, it became nick named the "Dance of Death". 
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2010, 08:28:32 PM »
An interesting side note:

The nai han chi kata that we know is but one of three forms in the nai han chi family. Kajukenboists perform a modified version of nai han chi shodan, which means nai han chi form number one. There is also a nidan and a sandan or a number two and number three. The nai han chi katas were very popular in the late 1800's and considered Okinawan in nature--although the form most likely originated in China and found its way to Okinawa through fisherman, land prospectors, etc.

The nai han chi forms were considered a bit too hard to learn, especially for children, so in the early 1900's Master Anko Itosu took a form called Channin and broke it down into five seperate forms, creating five new katas called pinans. The five pinans became very popular and all but replaced the teaching of the nai han chi katas. By 1902, all school children in Japan were taught the new pinan katas and no longer practiced the old Okinawan nai han chi katas. Those pinans are the same katas taught today in all the Japanese and Okinawan styles.

It is said only the old-school Okinawan families continued to teach the nai han chi katas after the creation of the new five pinan katas. That proves very interesting since GGM Mitose taught the nai han chi kata to his students. Only someone influenced by or from the old Okinawan families would have done that. Kajukenbo incorporates both the nai han chi and the pinan katas into its curriculum.
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