Author Topic: All Womens Class  (Read 23197 times)

Offline Mell

  • BlackBelt
  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
  • www.watchthelamb.com
    • Watch the Lamb Ministries
All Womens Class
« on: May 06, 2003, 03:08:56 PM »
We started an all womens class, with a female instructor,  last year to accomodate some women who were uncomfortable training with adult men.    Our thought was that we would move them to a regular class later as they settled in.  

Would it be unrealistic/unfair to allow them to stay in an all women's environment?  Some of them do not want to move to another class, most of them are extremely nervous when we have men stay to assist with the class.  Are we doing them a dis-service by having offered the all women's group to begin with?  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »
Sibak Mellody Porter
ANDERSON MARTIAL ARTS - Grafton, Ohio
www.ohiokajukenbo.com
www.watchthelamb.com

Offline John Bishop

  • Senior Black Belt
  • Black Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 2605
  • Seek Knowledge, Not Rank
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2003, 03:41:08 PM »
Simple fact of life.  Most attacks on women will be done by men.  So, even if you keep them in a womens class, have them do their techniques on men at least once in a while.  The more often, the better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline John Bishop

  • Senior Black Belt
  • Black Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 2605
  • Seek Knowledge, Not Rank
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2003, 11:41:20 PM »
Mell:

I've been a cop for 31 years. The last 23 as a investigator.  Right now I have 39 domestic violence cases sitting on my desk.   Over the years I have investigated hundreds, if not thousands of rapes, sexual assualts, spousal abuse, elder abuse, and child abuse cases.  
When the victim is a woman, 99 % of the time the assailant is a male.  
It is a very rare case when a woman actually fights back, and wins (escapes).   Most of the victims I've talked to shared two  traits.  They were paralized with fear, and they were sure that they were not capable of physically defeating or escaping from the attacker.
No matter how much you believe in the equality of the sexes, for the most part men are stronger and faster than women.  That is why every sporting event that is based on strength or speed is divided into mens and womens categories.
The one way to overcome fear and doubt, is with confidence.  Confidence is not gained by someone telling you what you are capable of, but by you proving to yourself what you are capable of.  
I'm not saying that women have to train full contact no holds barred with men, but they do have to train with men on occassion.
In Kajukenbo we use the "Monkey Line" in doing a lot of our techniques.  One of the purposes of doing your technique on everyone in the line is to adapt to the differant students weight, size, reach, speed, and power.   Just because you can make your technique work on the 125 pound women in your class, it dosen't mean it will work on the 225 pound man on the street.   But in the controlled enviroment of the school you can find out what should work on the 225 pound man without breaking your bones and loosing a few teeth.  It will never be as realistic as a real street encounter, but it will be as close as you can get in a training enviroment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Karazenpo

  • Guest
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2003, 07:25:55 AM »
Sigung Bishop, the longer I've been associated with this forum the more I see the direct offshoot of Karazenpo from Kajukenbo. I had switched over from Goju in '73 to Karazenpo in '74 and we were doing that same 'monkey line' you describe with the only difference is Hanshi Seavey called it 'the gauntlet'. Totally agreed. Big difference working techniques and making yourself adapt to various partners. Agreed also, women should train often with men in all aspects of the art as far as application goes. You can see from previous posts I show no bias with women in the martial arts, one of my instructors at the Kaito Gakko is a woman and Soke-dai of the Institute. I view my peers and seniors as martial artists and genderless as far as their standing goes. However, going along with my brother officer and martial artist, Sigung Bishop whose had more experience than me in law enforcement, I have to say it is IMPERATIVE women do application with men including sparring and grappling. Anything less will be giving them a false sense of security. Many times I say Imho, In my humble opinion. This is one of the few times I won't, not meaning to sound arrogant, but it is the way it is and I will never change my opinion on that. My wife made her original black belt under me. She had to put on the gloves with the guys including myself, grapple with the guys and at times took some pretty 'bad' hits, but it made her into what she is today. She has 'heart' and is not afraid to take a punch. She's been there and done that. As long as she is conscience, she will fight back. She also had female training partners, its only normal and she would pair off and spar with them also, but to me the real test of heart, not to mention skills, was going up against an aggressive male and getting through it! That to me is also Kajukenbo/Kempo as how it was taught to me through Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu ;)  Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Nagi

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
    • Hapkido
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2003, 08:52:22 AM »

Mell I don't think you are doing a dis-service to the women's class by just having it all women at least they are getting some type of training that can be useful but I do agree that they should aleast try a class with men involed. Push them but not to hard you don't want to lose them all together. Make them all do one class with men and then let them make a decision (maybe talk to the guys before hand not to intimidate the girls).  
Or here is a better idea bring a different guy into class every couple of weeks to be a uke (attacker) and this way the girls will out number the guy and make them feel more comfortable because it is there class and maybe not even tell the girls what you are doing if they know they might skip that class. Once you do this for a few months they will start to get to know the guys and it won't be a big deal for them to do a normal class ease them into the program and maybe it will not shock them
all at once

Sensei Ron
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »
It takes many wise acts to be considered a wise person, but only one foolish act to be considered a fool
www.tmi-selfdefense.com

Offline Mike Nagano

  • BlackBelt
  • Yellow Belt
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • Kajukenbo
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2003, 01:20:53 PM »
I agree with all the above posts.  I do not have any problem with an all women's class.  I also don't have any problems, however, if the women do not wish to change-up their training a bit and work out with men once in a while.  I do feel that it would be in the best interest of ANY martial artist to train with a variety of different body-types, personalities, styles...etc.  As everyone's mentioned so far, most people who attack anybody are men, and so training should simulate that to some degree.  My wife, as Sigung Bishop knows, wouldn't have it any other way. But that's not a unanimous opinion, just hers, and that's fine.  There's no better feeling than making a technique work against someone who's bigger, stronger, and intimidating.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sifu Mike Nagano
Bishop's Kajukenbo Academy

Offline rookie

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2003, 02:03:02 PM »
I remember in highschool that every so often they offered a womans self defense class.  So for a few weeks the girls got together and trained with a couple of local aikido and jujutsui instructors.  They did not train with any men at all except for the instructors.  Then came the time to test what they learned.  Before the test the girls were all pumped up.  A couple of my lady friends were there.  The test consisted of them having to fend off a large man who was a security guard at school.  As soon as the first group of girls went up to fight the other girls saw as to how dificult it was to win and soon gave up altogether.  They were so imtimidated they didn't even try.  Almost every one of my lady friends have had some sort of abuse in their lives be it sexual harrasment to rape and they all explained to me that they were afraid.  These sort of crimes are all too present today.  I feel that male/female classes should be stressed if not all the time then occasionally.  Given time perhaps they would be comfortable with the idea and gain a lot of confidence knowing that what they are taught really works.  
thank you
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
There can be only ONE! - Highlander

Offline Mell

  • BlackBelt
  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
  • www.watchthelamb.com
    • Watch the Lamb Ministries
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2003, 10:09:06 PM »
I remember when I first started.  I was the only girl.  Wow was that hard.  So I understand the discomfort level.  Now I would feel hurt if I wasn't considered to be "One of the Guys".

Actually our womens class does have men in it now.  We have some older couples who aren't able to move as well as our younger people so they train in the womens group now.  (not to say that the women are weaker, but just that we felt they would be more comfortable in that environment)  So the progression has begun.  I really just wanted to see what some of you had to say about strickly womens classes and if you felt they were beneficial.  Thank you for the input.  

I also agree that because most attacks on women are by men, and because men are in general much stronger and larger than women, training with them is better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sibak Mellody Porter
ANDERSON MARTIAL ARTS - Grafton, Ohio
www.ohiokajukenbo.com
www.watchthelamb.com

Offline Kempo_Kathy

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2003, 06:21:30 AM »
HI Mel--
   I think by having an all women's class, you are doing
   them a disservice. It's like doing push ups on your
   knees. In reality, most attackers are men, so by
   doing everything (techniques,sparring, etc.) strictly
   with women you are giving them a false sense of
    security. They have to know what it is like to workout
    with men (sparring,techniques and etc.). Women don't
    have as much power as men but they have speed,
    agility and element of surprise. I have my adults
    do techniques with my children's class (open class on
    Fridays) for the same reason. When I started in
    Framingham 26 years ago I was the only women,
    to me that was an advantage because I had only
    men partners so I got a lesson on reality real fast.
    I think it made me a better martial artist.
                              
                                   Shihan Kathy

 
    


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »
Shihan Kathy Shuras, Shichidan, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu & Nick Cerio's Kenpo.

Offline Mike Nagano

  • BlackBelt
  • Yellow Belt
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • Kajukenbo
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2003, 08:52:47 AM »
However, Shihan, isn't it more of a disservice to put women in a class in which they will stay for a couple classes then quit, eventually going to the local gym to take a Tae Bo class thinking they are learning something about self-defense?  How many female students may have stuck with their training, if they felt secure in their learning environment?  Training with men has worked for many women, you and my wife included, but the great majority have not stuck with the arts.  Some people (not just women) need a different approach.  If the time is available to create such classes, wouldn't we be helping more people if we could?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sifu Mike Nagano
Bishop's Kajukenbo Academy

Karazenpo

  • Guest
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2003, 10:04:02 AM »
  In reading your response to Shihan Kathy I would like to chime in if I may. I totally understand where you're coming from on this point and part of me wants to whole heartedly agree :) but (I know, there's always a 'but', lol)  imho, that's the problem with today's martial arts. There's too much, I'm trying to think of the right word, patronizing, cajoling, maybe political correctness, catered too? too much sensitivity? I think I got it, APPEASE!  ;)  What I'm getting at is a key point in Shihan's post-26 years ago! Let's face it, we talk about 'rough & tumble'  to describe Kajukenbo training, we talk about the 'blood & guts' era of the 60's but now we have a 'sue crazy' society so we have to model our training around liability. Rent is soaring and it seems like karate schools are popping up everywhere so we have to be more conscience of student retention then many years ago. What happens? Well, by catering to all this, training has suffered somewhat as compared to yesteryear and is taking a back seat so many try to make up for it with 100's of techniques, but is that really the answer? Some may say training should be toned down even for the men, why?, well, those who really need self defense may quit and only the tough will stay.
   In the older days, under the hardcore training methods, I've seen tough guys quit and some of the 'meekest' when they signed up become 'hardcore' students. I guess I'm trying to say if a woman wants to learn a martial art the proper way it should be taught to her, taking into account violence against women will most likely come from a man than a woman, then she should be in the class with the same cross section of people she's likely to face on the street and go through the traditional ranking system with the 'boys'. If she can't deal with that, then maybe an all female 6 week self defense course or possibly Tae Bo should be her choice. The measure of a person's toughness is not how much they can dish out, but how much they can take and part of that is the discipline needed of oneself to maybe do something you may be a little uncomfortable with at first. So, I agree with the student retention factor that you had mentioned with the woman possibly lasting longer in an all female class but I think we just keep giving away too much to APPEASE everyone and if this keeps up no one will remember what 'rough & tumble' is and Kajukenbo/Kempo training will be the same as Tae Bo. Hey, I may be wrong, but this is how I view it.  ;)   Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Kempo_Kathy

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Emotionalism
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2003, 06:56:10 PM »
Hi Mnagano-
     I still think that it is more of a disservice to give
 them a false sense of sercurity.  The majority of the
 attackers are men. By having women work out only
 with other women, they lose the reality of the
 situation.  In a mixed class, they learn more of what
 will work in a real situation.  I have had many women
 join my karate classes and I've never had one quit
 because they felt insecure in mixed classes. Maybe
 because I am a women, they feel more secure I don't
 know. I also found that you can equate this with the
 kids class. I've noticed that if you only have kids be
 ukes..the other kids get lackadaisical!!!  For example,
 they think by just touching the leg during a leg hock
 the person will go down. That is why I have an open  
 class for kids and adults one day a week. In this class,  
 the young practitioner knows that he has to do the leg
 hock right or the person will not go down.
                                   Respectively, Shihan Kathy
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »
Shihan Kathy Shuras, Shichidan, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu & Nick Cerio's Kenpo.

Offline taesujutsu2

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Greetings
Re:All Womens Class
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2003, 11:42:27 PM »
I agree with it being a disservice to the women to have an all womens class.  Most women who quit after a few classes were not seriuos to begin with.

I have been teaching for over 30yrs, and I have never serpated the men from the women.  I ahve never had a problem with keeping women in the class, in fact they express the fact they would rather train with the men.

Of course I guess it would depnd also on waht areae you live in.   ;)

Peace,
Prof. Williams

Professor Deborah Williams
Founder/Grandmaster
Tae Su Jutsu

TODD

  • Guest
Re:All Womens Class
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2003, 08:51:55 PM »
I would have to say an all womens class is a definate no and injustice.  Most attacks on women
are by men(domestic).  I work in a jail and see the perps.  They are usually men.  Women in my opinion
should be trained with men and treated no different.  My class through growing-up has had females
come and go just like males and I do not ever recall them being treated any different.  "Theresa"
joined our Special Operations Response Team at the jail I work.  A few of the guys were concerned.
She proved herself the first training session.  No doubts now!  Should she have had to..?..I don't
think so but such as life.  She recently returned to work due to being in the Army Reserves and
being called on.  She's something else and I have no problem with her "backing me up" some
day.

Offline Mell

  • BlackBelt
  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
  • www.watchthelamb.com
    • Watch the Lamb Ministries
Re:All Womens Class
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2003, 10:13:12 PM »
For those who feel it is a disservice, are you implying that there is nothing of value that women can learn from training with other women?

In reviewing the previous posts, I missed a point that Kenpo Kathy made about it being like "doing push ups from your knees".  I learned to do push ups by starting from my knees.  I do regular ones now, but 8 years ago there was no way I could.  
Sibak Mellody Porter
ANDERSON MARTIAL ARTS - Grafton, Ohio
www.ohiokajukenbo.com
www.watchthelamb.com