Author Topic: To the MALES in the house  (Read 23672 times)

Offline Serene

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To the MALES in the house
« on: August 17, 2005, 01:56:05 PM »
Question to the men: I'd like to know from a male point of view - how do you help the women that you train with?

Do you treat them as the rest of the students?

Do you let up on them because you don't want to hurt them?

Do you bring it even harder because you know that there risk of being a victim is higher?


Soifua,
Sifu Serene Terrazas
Head Instructor
Terrazas Kajukenbo
American Canyon, Ca.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2005, 08:45:37 PM »
I treat them depending on their ability and size compared to who they are working with.  Much like Prof Harper stated, if a 250 lbs. guy hits a 100 Lbs. women, that gal may not be around very long.  As the ability and skill grows so does the contact...
GM John E Bono DC
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2005, 02:26:13 AM »
I've trained with/taught a number of women over the yerars.  Though I hope to treat them the same as the guys, it hasn't been feasible with the lot that walked through the door.  Many have never had any experience in martial arts,
and participation in a contact art such as Kajukenbo is a shock to them, even though the range of abilities has been
quite wide. 

One was a professional woman that didn't want to trim her longer nails, so I just worked around that.  She was
very good at learning the arts, although she bruised mercilessly.  One fellow even cracked her forearm doing a normal forearm break on a knife
defense, so that put her out for a few weeks.  She was brave and even wore a cup so that
she wouldn't be wouldn't be an inadequate training partner for groin shots.

As much as it is in vogue to say that men and women should be treated similarly, I think it would be unfair to
women to treat them the same.  Women should be pushed beyond their current abilities, but I think that
a good teacher should know what a student can do and improve from there. 
Most women are of a smaller stature and lesser musculature.  When the class knocks off twenty knuckle pushups, should we really expect all of the women do that many ? 
I know there are some women that can do twenty
pushups, but I've just never seen one.  (I'm talking on the knuckles, all the way and all the way down.)
There was one 25 year-old woman in my class that trained
for triathlon's and climbed cliffs.  Her strength was unreal for her slight stature.  Though, she could
do ten pushups on a good day.  I wanted to videotape her at least doing that many, but she timidly refused.
Shucks !

With respect,

Gints




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Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
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Offline envisiontj

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2005, 05:41:56 AM »
I believe female students should be treated the same as male students.  I teach along the lines Prof. Harper discussed.  I treat each student as an individual and regard their size, strength, ability etc.  I tell my male students all the time that if they are extra nice to a student because of being female, they are only cheating her.  Women need Kajukenbo as much or more than men do, how can we men cheat them out of the aspects of Kajukenbo?  I have known many instructors that believe the opposite, but they end up with female students that believe they have great abilities only to find themselves in a situation that they can't handle.  I recently had a female student join with me, coming in with a Black Belt in TKD.  She had many ideas in regards to her abilities until we put a little "fire" to her and my Yellow Belt students dominated her.  Thankfully she has learned alot from working with us and understands where here weaknesses are.

Sifu Trent Junker
Portland, OR
Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Kajukenbo - Portland, OR
Under GM Gerry Scott

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2005, 10:16:33 AM »
Sifu Gints, I know a girl that can do 20 in a row, you know her also. Sifu Trent so your telling me you would hit a 100 lb.. gal, a 100 lb. 13 yr. old and a 250 lb.. farm boy the same? I'm sure you wouldn't and that really was the point, like Gints said push them past their current limit, bring the contact up to the level that most martial artists, man or women would ever even consider taking.  If you guys have seen my Black belt Esther, you know the kind of contact she can take and dish out.  My brother is also a black belt, but 225 lb.. not 100 lb.., I'm 250 ...I have to be reasonable in the amount of contact per size and bone structure.  Does that make sense?  I understand that TKD black belt problem and have seen that before, I'm glad you should the path to "THE LIGHT" so that false confidence doesn't come back to haunt her....Peace...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline envisiontj

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2005, 11:42:36 AM »
Sigung Bono,

Sorry for the confusion.  No.  What I was trying to say is that I treat students according to their size, strength and ability, not gender.  So I would treat a 100lb girl the same as a 100lb guy or a 200lb girl the same as a 200lb guy.  Then, of course, I factor in ability and strength - size does not always equal strength.  So, I am definitely on page with what you and Prof. Harper were saying.
Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Kajukenbo - Portland, OR
Under GM Gerry Scott

Offline cirillo

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2005, 11:54:22 AM »
I train everyone differently, based on their experience, attitude, physical ability, emotional characteristics, etc.  I gear everyones training individually and teach each person different things.  That is why I don't teach more than 10 students at a time.  Male or female doesn't seem to matter much.  I have met women that are big, little, short, tall, emotional, unemotional, etc.  If training differs for the person, it is because they are a different person, not because they are male or female.  I believe in capitalizing on a person's strengths and removing weaknesses.  Hope this helps. 8)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline Serene

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2005, 12:29:04 PM »
Gentlemen from reading your post you say that there are no special treatments. Thats great now remeber what you wrote the next time a female walks into your house.

It's funny the posts that are written here do not match with what I have seen at seminars and some schools. Are we being polite or are we being honest? hmm......I am not saying its your schools but many are still living in a bubble and believe that women can not be good training partners. 

Let's take this a little further.............In your MALE oppinion what can we do to be better training parterners?
Learn to take hit, don't whine, spar more, by a cup, put our hair up? What do you think??????


Be honest no feelings here this is strictly TRAINING business.

Soifua,
Sifu Serene Terrazas
Head Instructor
Terrazas Kajukenbo
American Canyon, Ca.

Offline cirillo

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2005, 01:56:33 PM »

Let's take this a little further.............In your MALE oppinion what can we do to be better training parterners?
Learn to take hit, don't whine, spar more, by a cup, put our hair up? What do you think??????



In my opinion every partner can do the same thing to be a better training partner... help the person they are training with work on their stuff.  Sometimes that mean realism, sometimes that means slowing it down so they can break down the movements.  I have had bad training parners that are men and bad ones that are women.  Everyone is a bad partner if they have a chip on their shoulder or is emotional about what they are doing.  If you have had bad experiences with other training situations, leave the problems behind and don't take them with you to the next session or pass them on to different people.  It isn't my fault there are bad instructors out there as well as bad training partners. :P

It doesn't surpprise me that such situations arise during training in the martial arts, but I wouldn't go and think it is your fault or you could have done anything about it.  I have seen situations in other sports (Soccer for example) where certain individuals felt that certain geners shouldn't be doing the sport.  These people are either idiots or just haven't caught up with the times.  These people will probably not change no matter what you do, so why waste your time with them?

It is the instructors job to make sure the training is a good experience for everyone involved.  Sometimes compromise is necessary and not everyone is happy with every training session, but one would hope that they were doing the best they could in the given situation. 8)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2005, 02:18:17 PM »
Serene have I been to easy on you, if so just let me know  ;D
Let's see the questions; Better training partners, to me is all about paying attention, and pushing your toughness limit, to at least match your training partners.
Oh yeh...whining is never good, men or women....well maybe a nice port.....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline John Bishop

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2005, 02:48:11 PM »
Some of the trademarks of Kajukenbo training have always been hard contact, hard workouts, and developing ferocity in the execution of techniques.  
But, you can exercise all those qualities and still be defeated.  The human body can be broken down physically by hard impact to vital areas, breaking bones, disjointing joints, tearing tissue and ligiments, and strangulation.  Every cop and ex cop here can tell you that they have defeated terribly vicious attackers, by using superior techniques.
Kajukenbo was decades ahead of it's time in becoming a mixed martial art.  The techniques and combinations in Kajukenbo are not the simple basics taught in many traditional arts. They are well thought out combinations of techniques that have to "flow" together well to achieve the most effect.    
A Shotokan fighter dosen't have to worry about how well he transitions from his block/punch, to his armbar, to his ground work.  He just works on how hard and fast he can block and punch.  
A Kajukenbo instructor has to make sure that his/her students are as good or even better at executing their techniques, as they are at taking punishment.  
Too many people are quick to take offense at who they're paired up with.  But the whole thing is part of a learning experience for everyone.  You may easily do your techniques on your partner, but your partner may be challenged trying to do their techniques on you.  So at that point you are contributing to your partner's improvement.  
When you go to someone's school or seminar and your paired up with someone your own size and sex, the instructor is telling you that he/she want's you to learn well, the techniques they're teaching.  If a 120# male or female can't make a technique work on another 120# male or female, there's no way they'll make it work on a 200# male.  You have to perfect the technique on someone you can handle, before you try and make it work on someone bigger/stronger/faster.  (You got to walk before you can run.)
A good instructor will see when a student has acheived enough proficiency with a technique that they can move them on to bigger and stronger opponant's.    
A good instructor dosen't categorize his students as male or female.  Sometimes I wish it was that easy.  But it's not.  
Every student is a individual.  They have differant levels of physical abilities.  Differant levels of emotional stability.  Differant levels of maturity.  Differant ages.  Differant cultural beliefs.  Differant pain thresholds.   Differant intelligence levels.  Differant toughness levels.  And differant attitudes.  
So you can't be a successful instructor if your just looking at the "male/female" differances.  And to me, success is the quality of your students, not the size of your school or your monthly gross.
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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Offline Serene

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2005, 06:14:24 PM »
Good Afternoon Gentlemen:

Good writing. :D

Many times we get set in our own way and we forget about others. Often enough we have suggestions to each other but don't want to seem pushy or know it alls so we say nothing.

Understanding that we are all different is the first step. Learning to deal with that and make it work in whatever situation is the challenge.

Soifua,




« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 06:21:55 PM by Kajushodan »
Sifu Serene Terrazas
Head Instructor
Terrazas Kajukenbo
American Canyon, Ca.

Offline supertim2003

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2005, 11:13:59 PM »
If I am being perfectly honest here I would have to say that from time to time I do train differently with women than with men of comparable size.  I do find that most women do like training with me in that it gives them experience in handling a bigger guy.  I have also found that most women train harder against the guys, either because they feel more at ease hitting a man or they want to prove something.  Either way I think its great when they want to go a little harder and I think it makes the self defense flow a little better.
Tim Morrow 1st Degree Black Sash Kajukenbo Tum Pai

Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2005, 11:39:12 PM »
Serene, You already know my answer. I agree with what has been written so far, especially with Prof. Harper. I think that if you are teaching a realistic street art like Kaju, then it has to change according to what the student is going to encounter. So with a female I emphasize alot more grabbing type techniques and try to give them an opponent who will be a realistic attacker and  be able to take what is dished out. I have noticed one thing though, I see woman who have never had to uke a for a man on a regular basis ususlly use less control than one who have. What say you?
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: To the MALES in the house
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2005, 02:40:06 AM »
I like the answers thus far, but now, we have to ask ourselves:  What it realistic ?   Most of our training is with cooperative partners.  They already know what techniques will be applied when we practice the Arts.  Even
during free-style, students adapt.  They learn that
their training partners will generally throw the same techniques, and even when new techniques are introduced,
they, too, are learned quickly.  We train on soft mats with groin protection and sometimes, training weapons.

I think an easy way to gauge a response to fear is to watch someone spar for the first time.  After
30 seconds, they're very tired.  After 60, they're totally bushed.  Not everyone responds this way,
but I've seen it often enough.

Some teachers have extensive experience in real encounters that don't end when the chief instructor claps
his hands.  I would say that I'm one of those instructors that is out of touch with reality.  I can hold my own
in a martial arts class, but since I have had zero real fights since age fifteen, I can't say what will happen.
I do make an effort to train/spar with other people and some events (Dog Brothers), and I do OK, probably
due to my above average size.  But really, I always know that someone will step in and stop the fight before
I am damaged extensively.  I do know that no one looks as pretty during sparring as they do in the Arts,
and I've seen some excellent stylists get whooped by lesser grades.

How does this relate to the topic ?  If you train to actually hit and be hit, you're better off than those training in light or non-contact arts.   But, I don't think it's easy to provide realistic training, even if the "dummy" resists.

With respect,

Gints







"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts