Author Topic: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....  (Read 7170 times)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2006, 12:34:43 AM »
I do all these except the principal protection....I like that one.....we also do fights where it is team fights like mentioned, but with rogue fighters that just wander to take pot shots at anyone they want.....sometimes with a stick.,,,.good times...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2006, 02:06:26 AM »
We do a drill that I sort of thought I invented. It is more tame than the great suggestions already posted. I call it multiple attacker pad work.

1. We use the focus pads. The pad holder is allowed to move and present targets. The pad holder can also target the side of the head and ribs with flat of the pads. Pad holder can also controlled palm strike to the face (with the flat) and shoot in and target the legs.

2. The one hitting the pads (defender) is first to work on boxing and Muay Thai combinations, but appropriate to the range, they can also use other strikes against the pads. The first rule is don't get hit so they need to evade and block.

3. We go three pad holders to two defenders, sometimes four on two, sometimes four  on three, or sometimes two on one.

4. Two minute rounds.

The defenders are allowed to grab, unbalance, push, and pull the pad holders if they need to. The defenders are also not expected to hit all the targets, in fact they need to be moving to avoid being hit and trapped, especially getting blindsided, this means that they MUST LEARN TO STRIKE EFFECTIVELY WHILE MOVING and make a judgment call when not to engage because it will leave them open to attack.

Defender may have to sprawl verse shoots to their legs, but most of the time just getting out of the way works well.

Defenders also will have to learn to protect each other, if one is getting double teamed, the other(s) should cover his back by actively attacking.

This is not realistic fighting because it is mostly limited boxing and Muay Thai combinations and it is using pads. But it is a good drill for all levels, IMHO, plus it is fun that people want to do it.

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Some observations on multiple attacker:

Attack and defense are the same thing. Always attack on the move while obeying the first principle of "don't get hit."

Real multiple attacker is tough, knock one down and engage another, by the time the second one is down, the first one is back up and attacking you. Better options are don't provoke a multiple attack, get away, get a WEAPON!!!

People can get tired or otherwise they don't have the "spirit" to continue. You can't go in thinking win or lose, losing is never an option. You will win... but the definition of win could be defined as survival of the encounter for yourself and those on your side.

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Now I know many here are very experienced in real world. I'm not all that experienced, but I am learning the importance of experience. Lots of good information from others, thank you.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2006, 10:31:45 AM »
We do a drill with the FIST gear, where the FIST guy attacks relentlessly and you use all your weapons.  We only have three FIST helmets because they cost a bunch, but you can hit as hard as you want full knees and elbows against an attacker that doesn't get hurt.  Like I say to them, picture 6'4"  280 lbs. on PCP coming and you will fight hard enough. 
  In the real life multiple fight situations I have encountered it is hard for people to work as a team and focus on the person they are fighting unless trained to do so.   They tend to be unorganized and almost take turns coming in when they person they are fighting is skilled or threatening to them. 
   I focus on toughest looking most aggressive bad guy, since big doesn't have to be the meanest or best fighter.  Attack him, then move quickly from person to person, with only bad intent.  Prioritize, toughest/meanest with how close they are and threatening to you and also how quickly can you take them out...
  Are their hands down, chin out etc....
Do you remember the scene in the Mel Gibson movie the patriot when he attacks those guys that killed his son.......Very bad intent.....Very....review that scene and you'll know what I mean....sorry for the rhyme.......well not really....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Vala Au

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2006, 11:23:38 AM »
Wado that's a good fluid drill to warm up with, we call it "multiple moving targets".

For this street simulation scenario, gotta go more dynamic, as Prof. Bono suggested with the padded suits or sparring.

great stuff.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2006, 11:40:30 AM »
One of the hardest things to do is be a good bad guy and a great a great target holder.  A fighter can really improve at an fast rate with a skilled trainer behind him pushing his skills.  I think a part of training that is often over looked is training the guys to be dynamic that hold pads or attack.
  The better you are at holding pads the closer you hold them to you, which takes away the fear of being hit and opens your eyes to counters.
 Also a padded guy should be looking for mistakes or flaws if you will in the fighters armor they are training.  Then they can not only coach the fighter to close a hole, not load a punch...etc... but also to increase their ability to see these flaws to use as a advantage in a fight themselves.....
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 11:44:58 AM by KajuJKDFighter »
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline sifutimg

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2006, 12:01:11 PM »
Wow, such awesome strategies and training ideas.  Thank you all.  A few things I would like to offer about multiple opponents.  During the summer months I pretty much have my classes at a park in my area in a very open area where we can do multiple opponent training.  We work on keeping a line so that you’re facing one opponent at a time.  In other words you’re moving such that you keep a person in front of all the others such that there is never a clear path to you.  If need be you trade up on the person you choose to be in front of you.   Keeping everyone in the 180 periphery is a must I feel although in training we add the various elements like someone behind you that comes out of the crowd or someone manages to grap your leg and doesn't let go to keep things mixed up and real.  Also you don't wait for them to come to you.  You become like the slash of a sword and cut your way through always moving from anything behind you although there may be times to balance your movement with defensive movement to maintain position.  Position is everything especially in a multiple opponent situation.  Like what was already mentioned here striking on the move needs to be explored and refined otherwise they do just get back up and continue to attack.  Everybody’s autonomic nervous system is kicked in and people just don't feel things that a normal calm person feels which leads me to my next point.  A person must be able to move to get you, they must be able to see to get you, and they must be able to breathe to exert to get you.  So the strategy here in my mind is to prioritize your striking method targeting the eyes, throat, and knees/legs (anything that cuts out their ability to be mobile), however you take what you can get of course.  My first Kajukenbo instructor taught us to talk your way out first, hurt your way out second, maim your way out third, and kill your way out fourth.  It's of course up to you to assess what is the necessary force to use.  I feel jumping into the third option from the getgo is warrented.  In addition if you spearhand someone in the throat and that person drops to the ground holding his throat panicked for air you hope the others see what your willing to do coupled with the fact how your moving and positioning I believe can (not always of course) have a psychological factor come into play to your advantage.  One last thing is that depending on the number of people and the way you move and position they start tripping over themselves which you can use to your advantage.

Thanks again everyone for all this valuable knowledge sharing.  Yet another example of the value of this forum.  I learned something that I can take back to the dojo and appreciate that.

Yours in training,
Tim
Grandmaster Tim Gagnier
Student of Great Grandmaster Charles Gaylord & Grandmaster Sid Lopez
Chief Instructor Pacific Wind Kajukenbo
Student Forever
Yamhill, Oregon

Vala Au

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2006, 12:22:33 PM »
Sigung Tim,

We call that strategy in multiple attacker "stacking" or "zoning" which not only keeps them in view but greatly minimizes the angle or zone of attack you have to worry about.

Thanks,

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2006, 12:39:12 PM »
Great stuff Sigung Tim....I like the eyes first, nose second (tears the eyes), chin third, neck (carotid) fourth in this situation.  Four finger poke, palm heel, punch, punch respectively.  Though there are many targets the idea of falling makes me keep my feet steady and under me, also, when moving much like was said, I move straight forward as not to split my power and distancing....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2006, 01:53:32 PM »
Nice posts.

Now, a kind of reverse of the situation. If working as a team to take out a single target, divide up the target between the team.

For instance, if you are two on one, if your buddy attacks the left side, you attack the right side of the target. If one of you attacks low, the other attacks high. A coordinated two person team can do a lot of damage.

In a combat situation, you might have a few "shooters" on your team that do most of the damage, the rest cover and support the shooters while keeping the rest of the enemy occupied. If a shooter goes down, someone needs to step up while the downed person is rotated back.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2006, 01:59:14 PM »
I teach drills based on fighting with multiple people, and it depends on the situation and how many. Two on one one guy clears the gap to trapping distance that way the other can come in to a controlled environment and quickly finish the opponent to move to the next guy...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Vala Au

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Re: So a Priest, a Viking and a Monkey walk into a bar....
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2006, 02:06:19 PM »
Wado,

Those are good drills for cell extraction or room clearing.  I like it... we're getting tactical now.