Author Topic: Master of Kajukenbo?  (Read 23300 times)

Offline Wado

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2005, 04:42:55 PM »
hmmm... Professor Powell,

The way I interpret your words is that a master of Kajukenbo is someone that has mastered the basics or core of the martial art. This to me makes a lot of sense.

I spent years in Goju-ryu Karatedo, when I reached black belt rank people then said I was a beginner advanced student. The key was I was a beginner again, but should know all the requirements up to black belt to do them at black belt levels.

Not that long ago I conversed with my first Goju instructor, Chinen Sensei, and he stated that the kata and basics (core of Goju) did not change or rather should not change. He said it was the visible part of an iceberg (the tip of the iceberg above water is about 10% of the total). He also told me that the other 90% or the hidden part of the iceberg is where the real martial arts is developed beyond the visible.

Extrapolating this to Kajukenbo, if I understand correctly, the tip of the iceberg is the visible parts of Kajukenbo which are the core techniques and forms. At some point in studying Kajukenbo one should have built a foundation on these core elements. These things should not change much, if at all, as they are the system to be passed down from generation to generation. Although circumstances may require that things evolve or change, but this is out of necessity and some of that is always going to happen.

Based on this line of thinking, I have to agree and disagree with you Professor, or at least I may just misunderstand your words. First, I agree that one needs to show mastery of the core system to be a master of that system. Your list:

14 Palama Sets
21 Punch
15 Grab
15 knife
13 club
8 two-mans
6 three-mans
26 Alphabet Techniques

... is a very good list and does keep things simple. One must be able to teach these to others with understanding, experience, and knowledge.

Where my opinion differs is that all of the above can be considered to be the visible aspects of martial arts, or the tip of the iceberg. To be a master, I feel that one must also dwell in the hidden aspects (the part of the iceberg below the water), in the supplemental training, in the application, in the development of experience and timing, and all things subtle that turn what we do hopefully into practical application.

To be able to take the lessons learned in Alphabet Techniques and apply that with timing and experience into practical application... That to me is a sign of mastery.

With much respect.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Serene

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2005, 04:49:21 PM »
Prof. I think everyone is answering your question to the best of there knowledge. After reading, remembering our talks and running thoughts through my head-I think I'm going to take another stab at this. ;)

Once upon a time anyone wearing a 5th degree was suppose to mean that they were a Master. Is that still a requirment now? No.

Somewhere out there I believe there are Masters, now are they 5th degrees? It doesn't matter they are masters. Just because we have not seen them it does not mean they do not exist.

And once upon a time you were only suppose to promote students that were yours but now thats not the case either, now is it?  

A master to you may not be a master to me or vice versa. In my eyes, my teacher is a Master, does he match your defintion-maybe, maybe not. Is it okay? Sure.

I have seen my teacher perform techniques at random. Does he look at his book sometimes to make sure - yes. Does that mean he is not a Master cause he uses a book from time to time- no.

Can he explain each application/movement - yes.
Can he show me another way if I am unable to do a certain movement-yes.
Can he show me why I strike only 4 times instead of 8-yes.
Can he show me which part is ka/ju/ken and bo and why our founders put it there-yes.
Can he show me why we move the way we do and also counters to it-yes.
Can he show me how things were and how they evolved-yes.
Can he show me the differences in the Kajukenbo branches-yes.
Can he position my feet where I am able to strike with more force - yes.
Does he teach me the philiosphy of our art - yes
Does he teach me the history of our art-yes.
Does my teacher live and breath Kajukenbo - YES.

extra stuff:
Is he into politics - no
Has he taught me how to defend myself against it - yes :D

« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 05:55:35 PM by Kajushodan »
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2005, 05:35:47 PM »
If you are a 5th degree black belt in Kajukenbo or higher, can you or your teacher PERFORM what's in your Kajukenbo at the level of a master? From the first form to the last form. From the first punch art to the last punch art, etc.?

Easy question. Lots of different answers. Are you a master of Kajukenbo or part of Kajukenbo? Is your teacher a Kajukenbo master? Or a Kajukenbo teacher. One may know Kajukenbo well enough to teach it to others, but never actually mastered it.

I think we have a lot of kajukenbo teachers!
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2005, 06:48:26 PM »
I think that's true, guess we can break it down...so how's your Tang soo Do, judo, jujitsu, kenpo, chinese boxing.....or your kicking, throws, locks, fast hands and just plain banging.........I'm better at the second set myself....
 Serene at the beginning of this discussin you said you hadn't seen a master, now you say your teacher is, did you rethink what a master is during this discussion?  If you did, then you know this was a good thread....Peace
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2005, 08:44:50 PM »
I largely agree with Prof. Powell's words, although I wouldn't expand my definition of mastery to teaching proficiency. Since I have a musical background, I'll put it this way.  It is rare to meet an exceptional performer, an exceptional teacher or an exceptional composer.   What would someone in all three categories want to do with me ?

To me, a Master martial artist is the exceptional performer .
I have met many Masters by title but few by ability.  Currently, I have two teachers in different branches of Kaukenbo, and I consider both to be Masters.  They both are just awesome but definitely in different ways. Though, only one carries a Professor title.

I am definitely far from being a Master but lemme show some of my Ninja moves ...

Gints

« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 09:21:45 PM by Gints Klimanis »
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2005, 09:47:04 AM »
Sigung Bono you got ahead of the group. I think you know where I'm going with this. I don't think we have too many masters in Kajukenbo because Kajukenbo consists of karate, judo, jujitsu, kenpo and boxing concepts and you would have to perfect each one of those areas to truely master the art. You don't have to perfect each individual art, just the techniques or concepts from those arts that make up Kajukenbo.

Rate your ability in each area:
Karate: How good is your hard-line blocking and kicking?
Judo: How well can you do a leg sweep, hip throw, shoulder throw, etc.?
Jujitsu: How well can you apply an armbar, wristlock, figure four lock, etc.?
Kenpo: How is your flow with circular strikes and blocking?
Boxing: Can you box? Do you practice boxing? In the later years this became Chinese boxing, but in the beginning it was American or western boxing.

This is an easy way to check your weaknesses-if you are honest with yourself. Rate yourself and rate your teacher. Rate your students.

A teacher is a sifu. That is usually a 3rd degree. A master is a 5th degree or above. A master can demonstrate their ability in all aspects of their art with proficiency. A teacher can instruct you on how to do what you need to do. They may have never mastered the movement, just learned it well enough to pass it on.

There is a price to pay for everything when balance is not maintained. Rank needs to equal ability. It should never have anything to do with friendship, family, or the person being a nice guy. When rank does not equal ability it becomes distorted and eventually fake.
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Offline Serene

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2005, 10:23:30 AM »
Sigung Bono - yes, I decided to write after reading the post. Also, Prof. Powell and I have had long discussions regarding this subject way before it got here. It's interesting the different answers.

You see people trying to be nice but trying to not lie at the same time. :-X

No doubt, I agreee the belt should match the knowledge if it doesn't than take the belt off.  >:(

Geez now how do we get all those belts back? :P LOL

Sifu Serene Terrazas
Head Instructor
Terrazas Kajukenbo
American Canyon, Ca.

Offline HARDWORK

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2005, 11:24:19 AM »
Prof.Powell,your lucky, at your job you really get to findout what truly works,also on the flip side,someone teaching a bone break or a "kill" move should they kill someone or break an arm to prove it does and can work? it's about training hard and hope you never have to use it! I respect what you have to say because your on the street every day and may be forced to your skills at any time.  Rob
Sifu Rob Harris 3rd degree -Reyes Kenpo

Offline badsifu

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2005, 12:22:35 PM »
Since there is differing degrees of influence of the styles that make up Kajukenbo within the different branches, does it not make sense for the mastery of those particular areas to reflect those variants?

Example:  A Tum Pai Kajukenbo stylist would not be required to be a master of the hard line Karate techniques of Kajukenbo the same way an Original Hard Stylist would.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2005, 01:52:02 PM »
Rob,
Funny you should mention the bone breaking guys. We just started a new academy. We have a guy from one of the military branches who was trained in bone breaking and killing. He did OK in the boxing, but nothing too spectacular. Self defense techniques and fighting a person punching or kicking at you are so different. Had some guy grabbed him and left themselves exposed he probably could have broken something or worse. But they didn't. They punched him in the face a bunch of times so he was forced to move, punch back, duck, back up, move forward, absorb getting hit. I think he thought he was going to do real well. I believe he left some ego on the floor.

BadSifu,
Exactly. That's what I'm saying to a tee. The original method guys have a very similar curriculum. What you teach is really close to what I teach. What Serene teaches, and GM Davis teaches, and Sigung Bishop teaches, and GM Forbach teaches is almost all the same. We can compare our students knowledgewise because they all have a similar requirement for promotion.

We can't compare them to Tum Pai or Ch'uan fa Kajukenbo. Those branches need to get together and do what we have done. Find common ground and have a similar curriculum. If something happens to me and my son Matt wants to keep training. I'm going to send him to you or Serene or Sigung Bishop or GM Forbach, etc. He won't miss a beat.

How hard would it be to get the Tum Pai guys, the Ch'uan fa guys, the Ramos guys, etc. to create a common curriculum for what they teach in their branch?

I talked to GM Sotelo about this. He sees a need for this as well. That's how Kajukenbo can grow and become better organize. But, Yes. Exactly what you said.

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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2005, 01:55:19 PM »
8)
until the day we die we are all just students.


I like that.
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2005, 02:12:24 PM »
You guys are great. This brings us full circle. We are all just students. We just train and none of us may ever really reach the level of mastery, but we keep trying. We use promotions to provide us with a way of measuring how much we have learned. We use belts to acknowledge that achievement and provide a reward to achieve more. The goal is the art. The objective is to learn it the best as possible. If done correctly you get better with time, not worse. If done incorrectly you destroy yourself.
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Offline Dennis Peterson

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2005, 02:23:23 PM »
I believe I have found a true master.


http://www.compfused.com/directlink/873/
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Offline Eugene Sedeno

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2005, 05:15:35 PM »
Aloha Prof. Powell,

Howzit going?  I find the input in this thread very interesting and thought provoking.  Aside from Sijo and the other Co-founders who do you feel is a true Master of Kajukenbo?

It is good for us to have good people to emulate and set our goals by.  I’m very serious and interested in your insights.

Mahalo,
GM Eugene Sedeno
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Offline Chief Instructor

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Re: Master of Kajukenbo?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2005, 10:45:00 PM »
There's a person in the martial arts whose last name is Bates. Since I don't care for him, I constantly refer to him as Master Bates. Thankfully, my students get the double entendre.
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