Author Topic: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts  (Read 10781 times)

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2005, 03:55:07 PM »
Staying on topic with Sigung Dan's question.

I am a Christian. I am a Martial Artist. I am not a pacifist. How do I reconcile all of them?

The Old Testament commanded "Thou shalt not kill."  Yet I served 8 years in the Navy reserve and learned how to use an M-16 to do just that, Kill. Let me clarify. Thou shalt not kill is more properly rendered, thou shalt not murder. Any other interpretation would make God a liar since it was God that commanded the wandering Jews to slaughter man, woman & child in the land He promised in war.

Killing in war is not the same as murder. Killing in self-defense, I would assume we would agree, is not murder. Killing to defend and protect myself, my family, my friends, my country, is not murder and therefore not a conflict of my Christian beliefs.
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2005, 04:41:26 PM »
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Killing in war is not the same as murder. Killing in self-defense, I would assume we would agree, is not murder. Killing to defend and protect myself, my family, my friends, my country, is not murder and therefore not a conflict of my Christian beliefs.

I agree with this last part very much--there is a distinction between killing and murder.  Morally, however, how does one tell the difference?  If your country goes to war with another country to take their resources, which are rightfully theirs, is that killing then murder, just as killing someone to steal their clothes and wallet murder?


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As you wish.  May I lastly add that I am confident the poster meant no offense to the Jewish community.  I also think that people in general are WAY TOO quick to be offended and get angry today.  Life is fun.  Don't sweat the small stuff.

Personally, I am not one to be easily offended, however I did find the statement that Jews were hateful to be rather disrespectful, as it implies that Jews were indeed hateful.  If one does not speak up, then these falsities are perpetuated, and lead to further problems.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline GhoSSt

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2005, 05:44:54 PM »
The topic isn't if religion is valid or not.

Sure it is. Anytime you say "is theory (whatever) important to belief system (whatever), you need to examine the belief system itself.

"Stupid is stupid. Faith doesn't make it smart". Maureen Johnson (R.A. Heinlein)

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BTW, didn't you quote the bible in the Rapue topic?  If so, how do you explain your quote there versus your thoughts here?

Ayup. To make a simple point that no one here is perfect. Whatever the debatable theological implications of "well looking at this book and comparing this passage to this verse, blah blah". My only point was 'why dwell on the short comings of one man when everyone has got their own issues and past to deal with?'. Mote/Log/Eye crap at its simplest.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2005, 05:47:29 PM by GhoSSt »
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TimothyVargas

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2005, 10:49:26 PM »
Hello,

I dont have too much time to type everything I would like on the subject, maybe later if time permits.

Did Jesus teach "passivism"?  That answer is available to anyone who reads the New Testament, lives of the Apostles (more like their deaths), and the disciples of the apostles, martyrs, etc., etc., etc..   Has anyone read any of the lives of the early Christian martyrs? Passivism at its best!

There is also a development of the so-called "justified war doctrines", which came about more than 300 years after the death and resurrection of the Saviour, when Christendom was formed (being recognized as a legit. religion by Emperor Constantine).  War and the act of killing while defending family/country was purely a secular matter, separate from the spiritual needs of those involved.  One of the verses used in the "justified war doctrines" is that of no greater love than laying down your life for your neighbor.  At which case we ask the Lord forgiveness and His loving mercy on those who do serve in the armed forces or those defending themselves who have taken lives.  Remember, war is not caused by God, but the evil-one.  When the crusades began, over 1000 years after the resurrection of the Saviour, that was the time of yet another development of the so-called "justified war doctrine".

It seems the farther away we are from the time that Christ walked the earth, most of His teachings become non-applicable to our lives today.  Most people cannot stand to "deny themselves", because it makes them weak, uncomfortable, passive.  Our egos are definately too big to follow Christ as He intended, at which we need to repent that much more.

Naturally this subject can be debated beyond our lifetimes.  Please do not take offense at my words.

Timothy

Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2005, 08:42:10 PM »
Wow, did I stir up the pot or what ???
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Offline dastars

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2005, 09:02:24 PM »
Wow, did I stir up the pot or what ???

The internet takes the usual cocktail party rule of "don't discuss politics, religion or sex" and multiplies it by ten.  When there's a shield of anonymity, it's truly remarkable what people will say.  Not to mention you can always argue something just out of boredom; I certainly do on occasion.

As a suggestion to the mods/admins, a "serious discussion" forum might be a good addition - given how many there already are, one more wouldn't hurt, and it would allow for a tightly moderated area for people to discuss civilly the "Big Questions."  It's a staple of most boards I frequent, and as this line has shown, often a good idea.
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2005, 09:35:44 PM »
I agree with that sentiment completely.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Paul Peter

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2005, 08:43:38 PM »
Wow, did I stir up the pot or what ???

Nawh... I think it's good to talk about things that interest us.  Regardless of what is discussed, as long as people don't take things personally... everything should be good to good.  Like ANY relationship, we get closer IF we can discuss things without getting bent out of shape.  In Kajukenbo, I hear quite a bit about cultivating Ohana... well I thought this thread was in that spirit

-My 2 cents, Paul

EricP

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2005, 10:26:09 AM »
 Hello everyone!!
 to Bad Sifu , I had a similar problem with my mom when when I becan training in Judo at age 13.She thought the yin/yang symbol meant "Evil Devil Stuff" but after doing research on the matter everything was cleared up.

  Eric P,Kajukenbo Forever ;D

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2005, 12:27:15 PM »
There was a website that is no longer up.  It was about satan and the martial arts.  Someone brought it up on "Martial Talk" last year.  It talked about the various "Pagen" symbols and practices of various martial arts.  What really surprised me was when I was looking at the symbols, they had the Kajukenbo Coat of Arms up on the site as a satanic martial arts symbol.
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2005, 12:31:42 PM »
I have yet to encounter anything relating the devil to the yin/yang or witnessed any hostility towards the Kajukenbo or WHKD patches. 
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Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2005, 01:53:55 PM »
A reply to Sibak Poelking's answer:

I understand what you are saying in regards to the interpretation of the no killing rule in Christianity.  Here is my counter question:

You learn techniques that apply both deadly and non-deadly force.  Both techniques could be used at any time in any encounter.  Following the basic principle of thou shall not murder, in what way would using the deadly technique be appropriate when the non-lethal version is readily available?

An example:  For those that know Original Hard Style, you have Grab Art 1 or let's say Grab Art 8.  1 ends with a punch to the face, 8 ends by breaking the neck.  Both defend a double lapel grab.  8 is obviously the more damaging and possibly more lethal technique.
Not an easy question to answer no matter what your take on the subject. The way we train is the way we will respond according to Steve (Sanders) Muhammed. One has to evaluate the violence of the situation. Was I being attacked by someone under the influence of a drug who would not otherwise do so? Would I know that person was UTI? Was I startled out of my sleep by someone breaking into my home? That particular case falls under the "protection of family" clause in my mind. Since I have never had to use my martial arts in any confrontation I cannot answer with any certainty how I would respond. But maybe that is a testament to my own passiive nature--I stay out of the way of harm in as much as possible. As the Apostle Paul said, "Live peacably with all men." Women on the other hand.  ;D Just Kidding!

I guess the bottom line for me, is that if I had to use my abilities to defend myself and it resulted in a fatality, I would not mourn that loss since I know that I would not have been the cause of the violence. If I tended to a more violent nature, then I would have to wrestle with this issue more.
Rob Poelking, Black Belt, Original Method
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2005, 03:41:00 PM »
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.....In another forum I'd be happy to discuss all of the proofs and evidence against evolution.  Which, is itself, a religion.
Sifu John Hood.... I am sorry, but I have to comment on your statement here.  You are incorrect.  Having worked in science for more than 20 years and investigating all of the issues involved, giving seminars to numerous groups (including religious, public and scientific) and debating this issue in education panels.  It is clear that this type of comment arises from a poor understanding of the issues involved.  I certainly respect you as a martial artist, but you are discussing my field of expertise.  It is a real shame that questions regarding the validity of a proven theory, i.e. evolution, have arisen from individuals that do not understand the facts.  Please disregard whatever information you have been given to the contrary.  Feel free to have your own beliefs, of course, everyone is entitled to that.   However, questioning the validity of evolution is very similar to questioning the validity of gravity.  I don't mean any disrespect, but this is a much more concrete issue than most people have been led to believe.

This is the reason that I felt that I must respond.  We are dealing with this issue in our elementary schools at present and everyone on this forum votes/discusses these issues.  I am religious myself (Christian), but that has not clouded my logic and judgement in this matter.  Please don't damage the future of our children by endagering their potential to understand how complex things like evolution work by confusing fact with beliefs of individuals. 8)
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« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 03:43:42 PM by cirillo »
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Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2005, 08:28:32 PM »
Ok, Look, the philosophical debate of atheism vs faith / creation vs evoloution is completely off topic. Can we all please get back to the original philosophical issue dealing with those who are bound to a moral code (specifically targeting Christians) and how they deal with passificm vs. self-defense.

Those other subjects are great debates but belong in the sunday schools and universities.

Please stay on topic. Thank you.
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Offline SA_Kajukenbo

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Re: Christian Ethics and the Martial Arts
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2005, 08:39:16 PM »
Ok, Look, the philosophical debate of atheism vs faith / creation vs evoloution is completely off topic. Can we all please get back to the original philosophical issue dealing with those who are bound to a moral code (specifically targeting Christians) and how they deal with passificm vs. self-defense.

Those other subjects are great debates but belong in the sunday schools and universities.

Please stay on topic. Thank you.

Thank you.
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