Author Topic: Re: The Frosting on the Cake  (Read 8421 times)

Offline Bautista's

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« on: November 16, 2005, 02:20:57 PM »
WOW, I thought I knew most of the grandmasters and professors under Sijo Emperado, As they say up in age for some of us some of the memirize goes. Congratulation to Grandmaster Larrry Martin 8th degree in Kajukenbo from Rhode Island State and Grandmaster Robert Handley
8th degree in kajukenbo from Delaware State, with the World Martial Art Union, they did there teachers proad but I don't remwnber who they are??
Emil Bautista
Emil Bautista
Kajukenbo black belt (1966)

Offline John Bishop

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2005, 04:40:54 PM »
Don't think they're part of our Ohana. ???
There's a couple systems on the east coast who use the name "Kajukenpo"  & "Kajukempo".  And there's actually a "Kajukenfu" too. 
"Kajukenpo Pai Lum" has no lineage connecting it to Kajukenbo, and then there's Algene Caraulia's "Kajukenpo".  As I understand it, Algene was a brown belt in Kajukenbo and received a black belt in Okinawan Karate from Robert Trias of the U.S.K.A.    And to date no one has ever found the lineage of Harold Laranang's "Kajukenfu".  
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline goju1966

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2005, 09:26:04 AM »
I have been involved with the World Martial Arts Union since 1991 and I know they try to verify all members that come in. Once in a while one slips through however they are not a paper mill and are a extremely legitimate organization. If anyone has facts that can disprove a rank of one of the members then e-mail the headquarters. If it is proven that a member has made false claims, they will be expelled immediately!

Offline Profmartin

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2005, 02:14:35 PM »
Hello all. this is a comment made about Prof. Larry S.L. Martin getting his 8th Dan from Sijo Emperado of the Kajukenbo system. well for your info. I'm from the Kajukenpo system under Grandmaster William R. Gregory 10th who 8) trained under Dr. Daniel K. Pai founder of Pai Lum and Prof. Nick Cerio founder of Cerio's Kenpo. it seems that you have forgotten where our lineage comes from., we are all from the same lineage. but, train under different Instructors. we are all Kenpo / Kempo Karateka. remember Grandmaster James Mitose? this is what I konow, which is my lineage ( Grandmaster James Mitose founder of Kosho ryu Kempo ), ( Prof. Chow Karaho Kenpo ), ( Grandmaster Ed Parker American Kenpo ), ( Sijo Emperado founder of Kajukenbo ),
( Grandmaster Victor " Sonny " Gascon founder of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu ), ( Great Grandmaster George Pasere founder of New England Kenpo / Kempo Karazenpo ), ( Prof. Nick Cerio founder of Cerio's Kenpo ), ( Grandmaster William R. Gregory founder of Kajukenpo ), ( Prof. Larry S.L. Martin founder of Shojukempo ). now DR. Pai, Prof. Cerio, GM Gregory, GM Parker all have passed away.
I train under GM Gascon I have a 8th Dan in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu  system. I'm the founder of Shojukempo with a 10th Dan. Dr. Handley is the Co. founder of Shojukempo with a 9th Dan. I have 41 yrs. of Martial Arts Knowledge. I trained under Prof. Nick Cerio, Dr. Daniel K. Pai, Grandmaster William R. Gregory, and Grandmaster Gascon and alittle bit with Grandmaster Parker!
at out dojo I teach what these Great Men have given me! which is knowledge! we are all from the same tree. but, there are many branches from that tree!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2005, 09:49:28 AM by Profmartin »
Prof. Larry S.L. Martin 10th Dan founder President of Shojukempo, Shojukempo International. President Rhode Island Karazenpo Go Shinjursu Black Belt Society. Kajukenpo Rhode Island under the late Grandmaster William R. Gregory

Offline John Bishop

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2005, 06:29:57 PM »
There's no need for anyone to feel insulted here.  Myself and most of the members here can tell you that Grandmaster Bautista is one of the friendliest and most gracious people in the martial arts.  And that he would never publically of privately insult you and your system.   
He simply misunderstood the differances between our "Kajukenbo" and your "Kajukenpo" system.  Being one of our most senior practitioners, he is correct in assuming that he should be aware of all the 8th degree Professors within the Kajukenbo system.  As you can see by our "Who's Who" section, most "Kajukenbo" practitioners are aware of all the Professors (8th degree) and Grandmasters (9th degree) in our system. And after being in Kajukenbo over 40 years, Grandmaster Bautista has probably met most if not all of the Professors in Kajukenbo.
We are very close family of practitioners, and if we don't know someone in Kajukenbo, we probably know someone else that does.  But it get confusing sometimes when someone takes the name of our system and changes the last two letters to "po", "fu", etc.   
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline envisiontj

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2005, 06:37:04 PM »
I may be mistaken, but it seems that you listed Sijo Emperado as training under GM Ed Parker.  That is completely incorrect.  Sijo Emperado and Kajukenbo came way before GM Ed Parker and his American Kenpo.  Sijo was already like a 5th degree under William K.S. Chow when Parker started his training.  There is much more to that, but I will leave that for the Kajukenbo high ranks to address as they see fit.

Yes, we are all from the same tree, which leads back to James Mitose, but once the tree branches to William Chow, everything goes everwhere.  Sijo was Prof. Chow's top guy until he went on to co-create Kajukenbo.  Since then, Kajukenbo has become a world renowned system of it's own.  To say that people from other outbranchings from Chow are Kajukenbo is ludicrous.  Sijo and the Kajukenbo GrandMasters have worked very hard, along with other Kajukenboists, to make Kajukenbo what it is today.  If others start claiming they are Kajukenbo when they are not, we will destroy what those before us have worked hard to create.  It sounds like you have done many things and have had many great influences in your training, be proud of your own teachers and studies and the things you have personally done, not what others have done and are doing.

Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Martial Arts Academy
Portland, OR
Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Kajukenbo - Portland, OR
Under GM Gerry Scott

Offline goju1966

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2005, 10:29:00 AM »
There seems to be a lot of concern among stylist of different systems about lineage. For example, I'm mainly a Goju Ryu stylist. There are at least 10 different Goju systems I am aware of and probably more. There is Japanese Goju, Okinawan Goju, Chinese Goju, USA Goju, Tenshi Goju, Shorinji Goju, Sansei Goju, Nissei Goju, Goju Kai, Goju Shorei, Goju kenpo and many more I'm sure. Each branch of the Goju system may be different in some small way, each comes from the same tree. I have had the oppurtunity to work out with and train with many differet goju stylist. I have noticed many similarities with each style and very few major differences. Don't get me wrong here... There are differences but very few major differences. Which leads me to this... If the roots of the tree are strong, the branches will always resemble the tree as well as each other. So instead of concentrating on our differences lets concentrate our similarities and work together for the betterment of all martial artist.

Offline Profmartin

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2005, 11:46:43 AM »
Dear Friends
I know that Sijo Emperado came befor Ed Parker. I just wanted you to know what I knew.
thank you.
Prof. Larry S.L. Martin 10th Dan founder President of Shojukempo, Shojukempo International. President Rhode Island Karazenpo Go Shinjursu Black Belt Society. Kajukenpo Rhode Island under the late Grandmaster William R. Gregory

Offline Profmartin

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2005, 11:54:26 AM »
Hello all. this is a comment made about Prof. Larry S.L. Martin getting his 8th Dan from Sijo Emperado of the Kajukenbo system. well for your info. I'm from the Kajukenpo system under Grandmaster William R. Gregory 10th who 8) trained under Dr. Daniel K. Pai founder of Pai Lum and Prof. Nick Cerio founder of Cerio's Kenpo. it seems that you have forgotten where our lineage comes from., we are all from the same lineage. but, train under different Instructors. we are all Kenpo / Kempo Karateka. remember Grandmaster James Mitose? this is what I know, which is my lineage ( Grandmaster James Mitose founder of Kosho ryu Kempo ), ( Prof. Chow Karaho Kenpo ), ( Grandmaster Ed Parker American Kenpo ), ( Sijo Emperado founder of Kajukenbo ),
( Grandmaster Victor " Sonny " Gascon founder of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu ), ( Great Grandmaster George Pasere founder of New England Kenpo / Kempo Karazenpo ), ( Prof. Nick Cerio founder of Cerio's Kenpo ), ( Grandmaster William R. Gregory founder of Kajukenpo ), ( Prof. Larry S.L. Martin founder of Shojukempo ). now DR. Pai, Prof. Cerio, GM Gregory, GM Parker all have passed away.
I train under GM Gascon I have a 8th Dan in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu  system. I'm the founder of Shojukempo with a 10th Dan. Dr. Handley is the Co. founder of Shojukempo with a 9th Dan. I have 41 yrs. of Martial Arts Knowledge. I trained under Prof. Nick Cerio, Dr. Daniel K. Pai, Grandmaster William R. Gregory, and Grandmaster Gascon and alittle bit with Grandmaster Parker!
at out dojo I teach what these Great Men have given me! which is knowledge! we are all from the same tree. but, there are many branches from that tree!
Prof. Larry S.L. Martin 10th Dan founder President of Shojukempo, Shojukempo International. President Rhode Island Karazenpo Go Shinjursu Black Belt Society. Kajukenpo Rhode Island under the late Grandmaster William R. Gregory

Offline KempoCuban

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2005, 10:19:43 PM »
Sifu Trent,
I see your point in trying to maintain the Kajukenbo sytem pure.  However, if you go back and read Sijo Emperado's interview part four.  Sijo acknowledges that his students would go out and learn other styles and incorporate these styles into Kajukenbo.  Just as Sijo did with his Gung Fu training.
If a fellow martial artist can trace his roots back to Sijo and the Kajukenbo system, does that mean he has no claim to mention Kajukenbo in his lineage?
I would think that would be giving "props" our Kajukenbo forefathers.
If you look at the Karazenpo Go Shin Jitsu, Kenpo Karate, Nick Cerios Kempo, Shoalin Kempo systems and compare the basic philosophiy and methodologies.  You will see there is alot of Kajukenbo philosophy in the approach.  The forms are not the same of course.  But alot of the punch counters,grab arts,club counters and knife cocunters are nearly identical to the material I learned and have taught.  I am not an expert in Kajukenbo nor do I hold rank in the Kajukenbo system.  I base my opinions after having ordered and watched the entire Kajukenbo "Original Method" Instructional series.

After I watched the video series, I just had to reply to your post.

I would not call myself a Kajukenboist.  But, if I did not acknowlege the system I study and teach, does not have deep roots in the Kajukenbo system.  I would in effect denying my systems lineage.  Sijo Gascon, GM Pesare, Prof. Cerio,GM Villari all have contributed to the system I study.  However, all these men used the base of Kajukenbo to expand their knowledge.  The Kajukenbo system is in no jeapordy!  It has roots that are deep and strong and has helped feed many branches of its tree!

I will always give respect to ALL the Masters and Grand Masters that influence the material I teach.
Once we attempt to deny our lineage, we suceed in denying ourselves.
Sensei Joe Viera
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Affiliation: Masters Self Defense - Professors R. Nohelty and J. Bryant and Master J. Mullaney.

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2006, 10:49:24 AM »
Hello Sensei Joe, I totally agree with your post and have been saying the same thing for many years now. This type of creativity was and is encouraged by Sijo Emperado. I also firmly believed that if SGM. Gascon did not depart Kajukenbo but simply taught Karazenpo Go Shinjtsu as his perspective of Kajukenbo back then, KGS would be a branch of Kajukenbo today approved by Sijo much like Won Hop Kuen Do. Sijo Emperado and SGM. Gascon are on very good terms and SGM. Gascon has an open door to come back as a branch of Kajukenbo instead of a subsystem, but as of now, he wishes, in all due respect, to keep things just as they are in KGS. Sigung Bishop told me that after Sifu John Leoning's untimely death in 1977, Sijo Emperado extended the courtesy to SGM. Gascon and placed him directly under himself in the Kajukenbo family tree. I thought that was a nice gesture of 'Ohana'.  With respect, Prof. Joe Shuras

Offline KempoCuban

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Re: The Frosting on the Cake
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2006, 09:15:02 AM »
Thank you Professor Shuras,

The information regarding Sijo Emperado and SGM Gascon was very illuminating .  Karazenpo Go ShinJitsu, Nick Cerios Kempo, and Shaolin Kempo are all eclectic arts and is why I choose to study them.  I was drawn to the freedom these systems have to "outside" material.  I could incorporate my Judo, Tae Kwon Do and Arnis knowledge and make a seemless intergration with my Kempo Karate (Masters Self Defense) system.  As I continue to learn about the history and lineage of the system I study, it becomes obvious to me as to why I was drawn to this system.  It is based on an eclectic art... KaJuKenBo!
You Have to give honor to Sijo Emperado and the original founding members, for creating a system which is uniquely American (Hawaian) in it's approach.  Which is why I will always pass on the history of Kempo Karate as being KaJuKenBo based.
Respectfully,
Sensei Joe.
Sensei Joe Viera
Sandan
Affiliation: Masters Self Defense - Professors R. Nohelty and J. Bryant and Master J. Mullaney.