Author Topic: Teaching Children - Your thoughts  (Read 7722 times)

Offline John Bishop

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Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« on: December 17, 2002, 10:04:46 PM »
Most of us know that Kajukenbo was never designed to be taught to children.  In fact one time I asked Sijo Emperado what techniques he thought should be taught to children.  His answer was "Judo, because it's  wrestling , and they won't be hurting each other".  
I really want my kids (students) to learn Kajukenbo, but like Sijo said I don't want them to severly hurt each other, or anyone they get in a fight with.  
So, my compromise was to replace three common Kajukenbo techniques with less severe techniques.  Basically, eye pokes are replaced with palm strikes.  Groin kicks are replace with stomach or shin kicks.  And throat strikes are replaced with strikes to the chest or face.  The rest of the technique is the same.  
That way I feel that when this kid grows into the adult class (13 or 14) he/she will only have to change their target areas to do the adult techniques.

Example:  Punch counter 1, Brush block, bottom fist strike to the bicep, snap kick to the groin.  Kids version: Snap kick to the shin.

I'd like to hear what your doing with your youth students.  Also, any comments pro or con on my methods.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Offline Mike Nagano

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2002, 07:54:10 AM »
This is an interesting topic.  It's a question of how much we're willing to compromise, yet still keep the integrity of the system intact.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Offline Mell

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2002, 06:46:43 PM »
In regards to punch counters that involve a kick to the groin, we omit the kick all together.  On punch #1, we have the kids step to 10 o'clock in a horse stance with the perry and pound to the bicep.  We have them do it the traditional way once they are teenagers.  

On grab counters 1, after locking up under the elbows, we have them step back left to 8 o'clock in a forward stance, while pushing up on the right arm and pulling down on the left arm, they drop to a horse stance taking the person down.  #2 is the same but to the right side instead.  Again, we adjust the techinques once they are old enough to understand control and practice safely.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Offline ThunderingHammers

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2003, 03:40:11 PM »
In our system of American Kenpo Karate, which have the same roots in traditional kenpo as Kajukenbo, we teach children a modified version of kenpo. American Kenpo is quite a brutal art, especialy for children since it contains a lot of strikes to vital targets. Control of technique is very important but children do not have the same sense of control as adults.

Our minimum age of attending class is 10. But I also teach in a private circuit and kids younger than 10 I only learn the basic strikes, punches and kick at the kick/punch shield. I also teach them some simple combinations at handtargets.

Kids above the age of 10 do have a special program in our school. We have broken the standard curiculum for each belt level down in more smaller sections. After completing each section succesfully the student reach a collored stripe. For example, after completing the short form # 1 (which is the first form/kata in our system) they get one stripe. After completing the first four self-defense techniques, they get there second stripe and so on.... We learned that children stay much more interesting in the art, when they receive a reward for their accomplishments. Children need to be rewarded more than addults to stay motivated. They love the stripes and work very hard for it. Most of the time the children stay in the children class till they receive their purple belt.

Sometimes the problem occures that youth in the age 14-15-16 who studied in the children class do not want or dare to join adult class, can anybody tell me how you handle with those kids, and how you can motivate those kids to join adult class. And what is the common age for youth to join adult classes?
This would be an interesting topic, since it happens quite a lot. It looks like some youths loses their motivations once they join adult class. Sometimes it results in a drop-out or youth keep on going joining children classes....

Greetings,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Offline Mell

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2003, 06:04:22 PM »
It can be a difficult transition for some kids moving to an adult class.  You can see on their faces a new level of discomfort.  I think if they are paired off with responsible adults who are better motivators or other kids their own age within the class setting, that discomfort will go away.  

My last thought, is that the senior instructor should always dictate what class a student may train in.  If we allow people to train in any class they want to because it is easier or less intimidating, we are allowing them to potentially hinder the develpment and progress of other students as well as themselves.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2003, 03:18:56 PM »
Reply to teaching kids Kajukenbo,
I don't teach Kajukenbo to kids, not even to my own. Here are some of my reasons:

Kajukenbo was not designed for children any more than a loaded gun was. Would you hand a loaded gun to your child and send them to school? If you teach your child Kajukenbo in its true form then you might as well hand them a loaded gun.

Kajukenbo taught as I have learned it and teach it consists of techniques that focus on removing a person eyes, breaking ribs and pushing them through lungs, crushing windpipes, breaking arms, legs, necks, bones in the spine and more. Why would a child need to know these things?

Like Sijo has said before, teach your children judo or jujitsu. Let them learn how to defend themselves by using escapes, throws and locks. If they get into a school yard fight you won't be looking for a lawyer to save your house when your son rips little Johnny's eye out or kills Johnny with a bear claw strike to the throat.

The skills your kids develop from judo or jujitsu will help set the stage for them to learn Kajukenbo when they become young adults and understand the responsibilty that comes along with having knowledge like this--having a loaded gun!

Kajukenbo is not Karate-do. Kajukenbo is about attacking a person who attacks you and defending yourself with such devistating fury that you prevent the attacker from causing you or anyone else harm ever again.

If you water down Kajukenbo to teach it to kids, what happens when the kids grow up and want to learn the real thing? Do they have to learn the techniques over-the right way?

Sigung Mitch Powell



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:06 PM by -1 »
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Offline badsifu

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2003, 09:37:36 PM »
I teach my kids all the forms and the basics that go along with them.  They also get Master Aleju Reyes' aprehensive techniques that he developed for the Suisun P.D.  After they get through all of that, then they move on and do the Grab Arts and Advanced Counters, minus all of the things you talked about - the parents don't like seeing neck breaks and such anyway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Nagi

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2003, 04:48:24 AM »
I teach Hapkido and for the kids that I teach their joints just can't handle the pressure on the wrist's, elbows, knees, ankles, and they just plain out don't have any control when first starting out. So what I teach the children is Kempo form's (since Hapkido has none) and a blend of Kempo and Hapkido punch tech's. Once they start getting up in rank (6 belt out of 9) they start to learn more of the joint malnipulations and they have a much better understanding and develop control.

On a side note I was able to participate in a small private Judo class with a Mass State Trooper and he brought his son along and he advise us we could not do any arm bar's to his son because he wasn't at the required age for arm bars to be applied in Judo. I think the age was 13 or 15 this kid was a good size kid.

Ron
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Karazenpo

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2003, 06:13:41 AM »
Everyone has made excellent points so far and part of me finds myself agreeing, however, this is the problem I have with it. Aren't we forgetting that in this day and age that the child may unfortunately be put in the position of attempting to break free from a possible abduction. Just one town over from me, back a while ago, an 8 year old girl was approached by a man with a knife who attempted to take her with him. She kicked the man as hard as she could to the groin and ran away screaming as she was taught. Believe me, I know a child is limited in what they can do to an adult but why limit them even more? I call it "stun & run" but at least they have a "chance" with a surprise poke to the eyes, strike to the throat or kick to the groin. Her father was a martial artist and prepared her for such situations. This story was in the local newspapers (I still have it on my wall) and being a police officer I checked it out with that town's dept. and it was found to be legit. Don't we have any obligation to prepare a child for such situations but ofcourse still indoctrinating them into what is right and what is wrong in the use of what they are learning? If this child was given a "de-tuned" version of the art, might she be a statistic today? I don't know but I definitely feel the trade off in that it may be used inappropiately at times (which can be corrected and disciplined) far outweighs losing a child to some predator. Just my thoughts. I simply ask, just take some time to mull over this perspective and let me know if you see my point. In my mind this opinion is an offshoot of the old cliche that "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six". ;)      Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Nagi

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2003, 07:06:58 AM »
Shihan Joe I definitly agree with you, but if the tech is harmful to the child in the Dojo then thats a different piont of view to look at. I feel if you drill it into there heads over and over that this tech is very harmful and it not to be used in the playground. I do this to my kids class and I have a good feeling it sunk in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Ron Esteller

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2003, 10:47:59 PM »
I have abduction and murder of a child in my family, 25 yrs ago my cousins beautifull little girl 8 yrs old was taken from us.
for all the 20 yrs I have been teaching primarily kids
(boys/girls club) i have always taught the kids the same techniques with the same target zones as the adults.. Never have I had to attend a parent/teacher/principle conference at any school for a student of mine hurting another... but I have had parents thank me for peace of mind....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Kempo-Sensei

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2003, 06:11:21 AM »
I teach a different course to kids than adults.  I focus on what is commonly called "Stranger Danger" self-defense.  I teach "stun and run" & "evade and escape" type techniques.  

I do teach forms and breathing exercises too.  But the main course is designed to teach kids what to do when being bullied by other kids, or attacked by adults.

We teach them to yell things like, "call 911!", "you're not my dad!", "Stranger!", etc..  And when they are safe we teach them to tell a "trusted adult".  I lecture to them every week about what to do and who to tell, if they are ever put into a situation in which they needed to defend themselves.

The parents at my school really like that aspect of the class.  We also focus on respectful behavior, listening skills, and other things that will help the kids out at home and school.

We have drills in which the children must compliment other children.  And I teach them how to properly great someone they meet for the first time.  Basically life skills.  We have a lot of fun and learn important things at the same time.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Jon Pack

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2003, 12:16:56 PM »
I have to say I am again on the same page as Shihan Shuras! The childrens program at our school is the same basic program as the adults. The differences are the number of extra self defense techniques (kempos) and the amount of discussion on principles and concepts. The targets and results of strikes are the same for everyone. There are a number of reasons why. The obvious effectiveness of the techniques are the essence of kempo. If we were to water them down the students would just be participating in another activity and would not be around long(too many other things for them to do soccer, baseball, etc.).
Also the number of parents involvement would be few to nill. All of our students give different reasons for training, healthy lifestyle, self defense, being apart of something truely unique etc. But if the system is not obviously effective there will be such a turn over you might as well work in a bakery.
Jon Pack
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Mell

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2003, 08:06:24 PM »
I disagree that altering techinques for children is watering down the system and does not teach valuable skills.    Altering techiques for children is for safety factors.  Children joints are not strong enough to handle locks and manipulations.  Though I do not believe martial arts is a "sport", when viewed in the context of childrens activities, we alter all childrens events from Football to Ballet for the same reasons.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Kempo-Sensei

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Re: Teaching Children - Your thoughts
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2003, 10:48:53 AM »
I know in Shaolin Kempo many of the techniques taught to Adults has them striking multiple times, before they stop and just stand there in some kind of guarded position.  This is WRONG for children!  

As a father of 4, I want my children to run from danger.  I want them to get far away from the attacker.  If I teach my children the same techniques that are taught to adults, I am teaching them to "stand their ground."  I need to teach them to run.

If I try to teach my children to disarm a guy with a knife, they will die.  If I try to teach them to stand up against the guy with a stick (club) they will get beat-up.  I must teach them to make their main goal to leave the situation.  And just like in another post, you will do what you train to do.

IMO, I believe we must change what we teach children in order to keep them safe.  As they grow and change, so do the techniques we teach.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »