Author Topic: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!  (Read 16036 times)

Palma

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Palma

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2006, 01:17:58 AM »
This sounds like a very big mess within their organization -

http://www.usadojo.com/take-action/petitions/darren-levine-interview.htm

Offline Stan Kristovich

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2006, 01:35:30 AM »
Big money, and attorneys involved, too.

A problem with mixing for-profit with for-personal-improvement.  True schools (of any kind, not just martial arts) are not-for-profit ventures.  Many martial arts schools follow the philosophy even if set up as for-profit businesses for the convenience and supplemental income of the school's chief instructor.  But there are always some individuals that will cross the line . . . from a web posting it is hard to tell if the 'accused' is really getting a fair chance to respond -- the USADOJO.COM questioning is very, very aggressive. 

The case and the response is a lesson for anyone who contemplates visions of getting rich (or even earning a principal living) in martial arts.  There are many, many people out there willing to make you a target of one kind of scam or another.

Regards,
Stan K
Aloha,
Stan Kristovich
(a Black Belt instructor [and currently on extended sabattical] in North Las Vegas, Nevada
Formerly of Stevenson Kenpo-Karate, Mililani, HI

Offline Mark Dinkel

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2006, 01:59:20 AM »
All a patent, copyright or trademark does is give someone the right to sue. It does not indicate that they will be successful in defending it and/or collecting against any infringements.
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Sifu GM Vince Black
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Instructor Sensei Tobias

Palma

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2006, 02:34:05 AM »
Let's make it a point that this never happens. I for one signed the petition.

Offline Stan Kristovich

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2006, 03:43:32 AM »
All a patent, copyright or trademark does is give someone the right to sue. It does not indicate that they will be successful in defending it and/or collecting against any infringements.

Maybe this is a better question for the legal thread, but I have always wondered how some martial artists can claim a patent or exclusive rights to martial arts training.  After all, the martial arts have been around in one form or another for thousands of years.  And if we are referring to basically passing on knowledge of how to fight, training in some type of martial 'art' has been around as long as mankind has pursued conflict as a way to solve disputes.  So how can that be patented or sold?  "There is nothing new under the sun . . ."

Regards,
Stan K
Aloha,
Stan Kristovich
(a Black Belt instructor [and currently on extended sabattical] in North Las Vegas, Nevada
Formerly of Stevenson Kenpo-Karate, Mililani, HI

Offline dastars

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2006, 09:03:01 AM »
Admittedly, I only took a survey Intellectual Property course, and didn't even do that well, but my general impression is that you can patent a "method" and that is a term the Patent Office defines pretty widely.  So it's not the individual techniques or fundamentals such as punches; rather, s/he who is trying to patent their art claims they are all integral parts of a larger whole (system), which they define as the set of techniques they teach.  I would use the analogy to a new method of irrigating crops; irrigation has been around forever, but if you come up with a 'novel' approach using existing materials and techniques, it would still be open to patent (I think).  Again, I'm a mere law student with a survey class, so don't rely on that, but I believe it's accurate.

As for being sold; martial arts have been sold for quite some time; again, we don't "buy" punches or techniques - we buy the service of instruction.
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline hunter

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2006, 09:43:11 AM »
It's my understanding that Krav Maga is such a generic term
--much like Hapkido-- that it's become enough of a public
domain that it can be incorporated in any training and practice
of martial arts schools without specific tribute.  It is a shame
that in such cases the quality, precision, effectiveness, depth,
comprehensiveness and completeness of a fighting style/method
--such as hapkido or kravmaga-- DON'T get protected if not
properly licensed.  It's too common to see "whateverthecurrentrage"
martial art tagged onto a McDojang or DoughJo, and have the
technics improperly taught or curriculum incompletely taught!!!

Taejoon Lee, heir to the HwaRangDo line, in his recent book
entitled "Defend, Takedown, Submit" has much to say about
the lack of quality control in hapkido.  That's why his family made
such importance out of properly licenseing HwaRangDo, even though
the historic term HwaRang is of common knowledge.  Taejoon Lee,
familar with legal study, has pursued claims vigorously.  I see his point
in doing so.

Nonetheless, if Kajukenbo were so widely spread without authority
and students came to studios that were under-par, that would be
a dis-service to all around--the founders, the teachers, the students,
the community!  But it seems it won't splinter out as much as the
generic Kenpo.  Yet, it might.  After all, broken down, all it appears
to mean is a combination of :  Karate, Jujutsu, Kenpo and Boxing.
Heck, with that view, anyone can set up a "Ka Ju Ken Bo" school!

And that's not a cheery thought!
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Offline John Bishop

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2006, 11:19:01 AM »
Actually, Sijo did register as a "trademark" the name "Kajukenbo" in 1960.  Although he has never legally enforced the trademark, he does own the rights to that name, and probably any specific technique names associated with Kajukenbo.
I can see where the "Krav Maga" group are concerned with people taking Krav Maga seminars, and then holding themselves out to the public as Krav Maga instructors.  But it may be too late for them, since Krav Maga has been practiced in the U.S. since 1981, and in existance since the 50's.  But since Darrin Levine is the one who introduced Krav Maga to the U.S. he may be successful with the courts.

The reason I say this is because the Gracie family has been very successful in protecting the name "Gracie jiu jutsu".  Just about every jiu jutsu school coming from Brazil has it's roots in Gracie jujitsu, but if their not licensed by the Gracies, they have to use the name "Brazilian Jiu jutsu".  The licensing is so strongly enforced that when Rorian Gracie came to the U.S. he registered the "Gracie Jiu jutsu" name in the U.S..  When his cousin, Reylson Gracie started teaching "Gracie Jiu jutsu" in Newport Beach, Ca. in the 1991, Rorian sued him.  When they went to court, Reylson's attorney's presented the argument that Reylson should be able to use the term "Gracie Jiu jutsu" since "Gracie" was his last name, and his father "Carlos" was the actual founder of Gracie Jiu Jutsu. The court ruled in favor of Rorian, so Reyslon had to start using the name "Reylson Gracie jiu jutsu".         
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline hunter

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2006, 07:15:44 AM »
Wow. With that knowledge of Gracie claim history, perhaps Krav practitioners will just
have to go by "Israeli martial arts"...  Good thing Sijo trademarked Kajukenbo !  But
perhaps there'll be a lot of "Hawaiian karate" as a term in various studios cropping up
in the future?  ??
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Offline John Bishop

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2006, 11:17:38 AM »
Wow. With that knowledge of Gracie claim history, perhaps Krav practitioners will just
have to go by "Israeli martial arts"...  Good thing Sijo trademarked Kajukenbo !  But
perhaps there'll be a lot of "Hawaiian karate" as a term in various studios cropping up
in the future?  ??

Actually, most of the schools that use the term "Hawaiian Kenpo/Kempo" come from the Kajukenbo lineage.
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline hunter

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2006, 01:06:19 PM »
Okay. So what precludes us one day finding out in the hinterland or amidst a bustling urban block
some "KaJuKenBo" studio which purports but doesn't perform?  It does "emptyhand bbj with
some chinese american boxing and sambo..." let's just say...  That's not exactly Kajukenbo in
the strictest sense.  So ... What's the response to something like this?
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Palma

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2006, 01:55:56 PM »
I drove by this school in Poway because I had heard that they were teaching Kenpo-Kajukenbo style self-defense. I checked out their training and I noticed that the instructor was teaching or trying to pass the tecniques he was showing them as Kenpo / Kajukenbo. I corss-trained in Krav Maga in Europe for 4 years and the tecniques he was showing them appeared simliar. I asked the instructor after the class if that was kajukenbo and he said yes, but when I confronted him and explained to him that his tecniques were not Kajukenbo he became very defensive and began ranting about how his instructor informed him that Kenpo / kajukenbo does not have to be stylized and that as a Kajukenbo parcticioner he has every right to add or subtract to the art. I don't know, I guess I was a little upset and perhaps i should have just kept my mouth shut. But i just didn't want people to get an idea that Kenpo / Kajukenbo was really like that.  By the way, the "Kenpo / kajukenbo" instructor also had a big sign in his office of the "Krav Maga Association" logo.  Talk about Identiy theft of the kajukenbo system.

Offline hunter

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2006, 02:48:07 PM »
So, what should we conclude from what Palma uncovered?
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Palma

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Re: I hope this never happens to our Kajukenbo system!!
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2006, 04:56:48 PM »
Hunter, your patch is in the mail brah!

The conclusion to my post is nothing brah. The world is too big for anyone to 'police" what is being taught to whom. Kajukenbo or not, at least the students are interested in the martial arts. They'll figure it out eventually, plus the kajukenbo system has become so diverse and there so many "methods" out there already. I have seen Kajukenbo mixed with Aikido, Tai Chi, too many to name. In a sense, it's a good thing. I am sure others have their own beliefs regarding this matter and tha's ok. Martial Arts is about individuality in my opinion. Like Bruce lee said, Until we humans, grow an extra set of arms or legs then we only have one fighting system.