Author Topic: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.  (Read 13105 times)

Palma

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I had a really long conversation with a friend of mine who teaches Korean Martial Arts and Kenpo here in California. He is really upset with the MMA  / no-holds barred craze that has taken the world by storm. He say's as a traditionalist he feels that MMA type schools have stolen a lot of his students and is putting down traditional Martial Arts. He also says that a lot of his current students are beginning to queation why they are being taught "katas" instead of sparring or grappling. Do you guys think that MMA is stealing traditional martial arts thunder?  I wonder what society in the 60's and 70's would have thought of someone trying to open up a "Ken Schamrock Lion's Den-Mixed Martial Arts" type school? (No kata's or uniforms,katas, just straight Ground and Pound.

I just informed my friend that MMA is basically an extreme martial arts sport. He feels that MMA type styles cannot be applied in the streets. I had to disgree.

Offline hunter

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2006, 07:43:07 PM »
I think it's high time MMA made the martial arts world make long needed adjustments.
Perhaps the ART part of martial arts will now separate into artisticness...and then
the martial methods/sports will go their separate way...

I see a time when practitioners will what they do now with KJKB and taichi...
do them separately, sequentially.
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Offline dastars

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2006, 07:56:04 PM »
To me, MMA is no different than XMA; different branches from the same root.  I'm all about free markets and letting people choose the dojo/instruction they think is best for themselves.  If traditional schools have a harder time staying open, I'm sorry, but that just means that the people that were training there were not truly dedicated and were going to leave anyway.

I train in BJJ (no forms, or real tradition outside of gis), Judo (very traditional), and Kajukenbo (somewhat traditional).  I find value in each, and I believe there's a market for each.  The smart dojo owner identifies the market he's in, what it desires, and tailors his teaching accordingly.  This may be harder for strictly traditional arts (e.g. Taekwondo, etc.) but for Kajukenbo dojos it should not be difficult, since there is so much freedom and personality.
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline hunter

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2006, 08:01:03 PM »
"...train in BJJ (no forms, or real tradition outside of gis), Judo (very traditional), and Kajukenbo (somewhat traditional).  I find value in each..."


So, how do you fuse / integrate it all?  Is there some outlet where you do this?
Most likely it's at your KAJ class, eh?  Thank goodness for KJKB for being a martial practice
that allows variation, flow, enhancement.... I suppose one could say the same about JKD.

And yes, TKD or TangSooDo or whatelse that's trad will have to deal with the market
choices.  For too long the trads have tread too widely.  It's time for some freeing up!
Gotta love Bruce Lee's concepts!
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Offline hunter

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2006, 08:18:22 PM »
Well pointed out!

Darwinism at its finest!

Evolutionary selection in process...

And the streets are getting better trained...

So now is the time more than ever for KAJUKENBO
to step up to the plate!
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Palma

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2006, 08:29:20 PM »
Very well put Black-Feather!

If I had "Karma" point's to give you I would.

Palma

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2006, 10:24:09 PM »
" Palma, you sure have a way of making a person ponder and think. You've got lightning fast Wit and charm to go with it. Ill give it a go and see what you think here, because we are the yin and yang you and I - Your'e ecclectic, and I think im getting stuffy in my years. As a more or less "classical" practitioner, mainly for self defense and excercise, I would have to agree with You Palma, and tell you right up front, you couldnt pay me enough money to get in a cage with the Iceman, or the guys like him and Id try every way on the street to avoid a rumble with the man.  Ask your friend if he'd get in the ring with Someone like Ice, with rules or without them."

I wouldn't wish Chuck Liddel on my worst enemy.

Offline dastars

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2006, 11:25:00 PM »
"...train in BJJ (no forms, or real tradition outside of gis), Judo (very traditional), and Kajukenbo (somewhat traditional).  I find value in each..."


So, how do you fuse / integrate it all?  Is there some outlet where you do this?
Most likely it's at your KAJ class, eh?  Thank goodness for KJKB for being a martial practice
that allows variation, flow, enhancement.... I suppose one could say the same about JKD.

And yes, TKD or TangSooDo or whatelse that's trad will have to deal with the market
choices.  For too long the trads have tread too widely.  It's time for some freeing up!
Gotta love Bruce Lee's concepts!


I'm lucky in two respects regarding integration; one, we have a lot of cross-over between the groups, so we have a lot of people comfortable at each level (striking, throwing, grappling).  Second, the classes meet back-to-back, so the mental game is not as difficult.

As far as applying MMA; yeah, I agree - if Chuck lands a shot, you go down, no matter what you train or what the context is 8)
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

University of Pittsburgh Kajukenbo

Offline NYKaju

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2006, 11:39:07 PM »
Palma, I've been down this argument many times in the past, and the best I can say is that people hate having their delusions shattered. Training in the US especially has been getting more and more watered down as litigation and commercialism has gone up. Complement this with outdated and often misinterpreted dogma of the martial arts and you have alot of people with a false sense of security that is just itching to be shattered by some sport fighter. In fact this is where my signature comes into play :D

Now I am not a sport fighter myself. But I do take the lessons it has taught us into fair consideration, and alter that to my teaching/personal training methods. Outdated things like punching from chamber, practicing hour after hour of kata as well as fantasy things like chi and everyone initiating attacks with static lunge punches and wrist grabs have been proven to be rather ineffective training methods when compared to an MMA style training regimen. The PRIDE/UFC/K1 revolution has taught me that trapping is highly overrated when up against skilled strikers/boxers and that trying to move into set stances mid-fight like horse stances and cat stances is damned near impossible without getting hit. I learned that pressure point strikes/grabs that don't control the head or body aren't going to incapacitate anyone but a compliant wimp.

Like I said I teach primarily for self defense purposes. My instructor is someone you could call a heavy RBSD (Reality based self defense) guy and I always take what I learned from him into account when it comes to teaching practical techniques for self defense purposes. But one of the other things I've learned fully is that there is no substitute for a solid base. Without solid boxing/grappling to back whatever else you do, you are doing nothing more but handicapping yourself. All the eye pokes, trachea grabs, groin kicks, ear pulling, thigh pinching, arm biting, sand throwing won't save you one bit if you don't have a solid base to work off from. Because of this I've begun cross-training in BJJ to complement my Kempo training, mostly with the goal of gaining a better understanding of the ground to better help me get back up as quickly and efficiently as possible, all the while putting myself into the most formidable position to defeat my would-be assailant.

The biggest problem right now with what I call the "UFC backlash" is a near religious like faith in their own system. I've heard guys go on about how that despite their system doesn't contain ground-fighting, rather than admitting it they instead claim that their techniques work on the ground too (just do them horizontally). Alot of instructors decry the MMA scene as nothing more than testosterone pumped muscle-bound brutes pounding each other with the bear basics of "REAL" fighting. And to an extent I might agree if only they didn't act like a boxing guard, and a decent ground-game were somehow bad habits for the "street." Sure it may not be the best plan of action in "the street" to take a fight to the ground, but the "I won't play his game and keep it standing up" mentality is nothing short of delusional. Look at guys like Matt Thornton who have been nothing short of successful in running quality MMA gyms (or as he says "Alive" training facilities) that aren't geared for that 17-34yr old demographic of student that teach quality self defense in a realistic manner. Personally I feel this is the direction every Kempo and especially Kajukenbo (them being one of the first if not the first authentic "mixed martial art") school should be headed in, to insure the most practical and best possible training for students.

It's the problem we all face when change arises. Some adapt, others die off...others stick around and complain until no one's listening anymore.

A side question Palma....did you make this post to see if you could drag a rant out of me? ;)
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline Wado

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2006, 01:12:55 AM »

Chief Instructor Evans originally posted about this two years ago. Grandmaster Ted Sotelo is On The Edge with Datu Kelly Worden.

http://www.kellyworden.com/OnTheEdge4a.html

Check out the March 13, 2004   "Kajukenbo: Fi Kuen or Flying Fists" show. Great stuff about Kajukenbo and Bruce Lee to start things off.

I believe that this show applies to this topic very well. Particularly at about the 41:00 minute mark where Grandmaster Sotelo discusses the impacts of UFC on martial arts. Key points pertaining to this topic at around the 45:45 minute mark.

Some of the key points I recall from the show is that:

1) UFC was a big wake up call for many who saw that they had been neglecting parts of their training
2) Striking and martial arts had for years been becoming more watered down.

I really enjoyed the show. I came out of it with the idea that the Gracies should be thanked for what they did because if not for them, martial arts could have continued to go down the path of becoming even more watered down until nothing of the martial side was left.

W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Palma

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2006, 08:08:54 PM »
Awesome thread NYKEMPO!!

I totally agree with you and we actually share the same philosophy when it comes to our training.  :)

Palma

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2006, 08:13:49 PM »
Thanks for posting that Wado.

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2006, 12:05:37 AM »
Personally, I think that the MMA movement can do nothing but help martial artists evolve.  As I see it, MMA is really only a subset of Kajukenbo--the maximum amount of allowed techniques you can do in a competitive environment where people can compete in more than one match in their lifetime.  It's nothing new--at least from a Kajukenbo perspective--but it is helping drive the market to more street-based martial arts.  As a dis-advantage, it can tend to dilute some of the more practical aspects of fighting, and over-emphasizes grappling (which can be dangerous in a multi-man or weapon situation), but all in all, I think it is a more compatible movement (Kajukenbo-wise) than big point-sparring tournaments.   One other disadvantage I see in MMA is that it teaches brute-force punching over precision striking.  A lot of strikes that can easily KO someone just aren't used because they require too many years of training to perfect (ridge-hands as an example) and most MMA fighters don't train long enough before going pro to develop those techniques.  All in all, however, I can't help but he happy by the movement.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Palma

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2006, 12:24:18 AM »
I have seen a lot of Martial Arts schools here in San Diego add MMA program's into their school. They offer it as a seperate class and it seems to help fill the schools already dwindiling student count. A class for the student's interested in the traditional style (Gi, kata, weapons, belt ranking systems,etc) and one who just want to learn to ground and pound. Pretty smart tactic for the business owner. 

NickS

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Re: The influence that MMA style fighting has on Martial Arts today.
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2006, 01:29:37 AM »
I think there is a place for both. Besides, most of the successful MMA practicioners have had more than a little training in one or more traditional martial arts. These guys train to become super athletes with unbelievable conditioning. No to mention that some of them seem to have jaws of granite and take a serious beating, win or lose. I think it is extreme martial sports, not for just anybody. The sport is still a bit "new" to see how many of the guys end up with serious permanent ailments after a career of it. I hope nobody gets any serious head injury or worse (like dying) from it. I don't see any old people doing MMA (I don't consider Ken Shamrock old!).  I do see people doing traditional martial arts all the rest of their lives; and I think this traditional training and doing martial arts helps people live longer, healthier lives. The jury is still out on how long the MMA guys will last, and what quality of life they will have. Unfortunately, I think some of them do steriods to get so pumped-up physically before a big event. Anyway, I do enjoy watching the events. They got my respect; but I would not recommend training and entering a MMA event to any of my students.