Author Topic: Stretching-- What's better?  (Read 2897 times)

Offline hunter

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Stretching-- What's better?
« on: May 05, 2006, 07:34:48 AM »
Tom Kurz, SCIENTIFIC STRETCHING.
His technics have been well proven by
Eastern Bloc athletic success...
The East European author, athlete, trainer
has scientifically researched that stretching
AFTER workouts/classes is BEST.  The idea
is that it's worked most EFFECIENTLY to
first loosen up (shadowbox, jog in place,
a bit of calisthenics) then go into jujitsu technics
followed by throws, followed by pushups, running,
kicking, punching, sparring, then a warming down,
and a cooling off, with time to chat during a MAJOR
STRETCHING session of 20-30 minutes AFTERWARDS.
THAT is a real change it seems in the pattern of class!

There is a science to the sequence.  Apparently
it's better for the body, as well as more efficient.
Less injury over time... 

My question is:  given this, WHY are soooo many dojos
always doing the opposite?  First they do major static
stretching, go into dynamic, do jumping jacks, run around,
sweat it up, kick, spar, and then do a cooling down with
throws and then jointlocking jujitsu...and MAYBE do a session
of stretching AFTERWARDS.  (It's ashame they miss this key
element!)

So.  Yeah, it's "proven" to work this conventional way.
"My instructor did it. I do it. No real problem.  So why switch
it around?"  Well....WHY NOT !??! 

Any input?
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Vala Au

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2006, 08:50:03 PM »
I'd like to hear why (specifically) the joint locks are done before the striking.  I do striking first because:

1.  It gets my joints loose and warmed up before doing locks, grapplin.  (At this stage it's easier to get an injury and takes longer to heal)

2.  The natural progression of a fight usually starts with throwing a few blows before tying up.

Just curious, always objective to hear another's take on it.


Offline hunter

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2006, 05:01:58 PM »
He explains it in his video. Worth getting.
I know it's been advertized for years in
BBMag, but if you've not ever viewed his
tape, it's worth going thru the entire tape
as it's full of information as well as exercise
sequencing.

His explanation is better than any statement
that can encapsule it here.
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Offline hunter

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2006, 05:04:58 PM »
The joints should already be sufficiently warmed up and loose
after the initial warmup he suggests.  There's nothing stopping
you from doing the karate/striking then the jujitsu/jointlocks
in whatever sequencing during real-life drills.  But the point is
when there is any significant session of jointlocking then it's
apparently best to do prior to striking/heavy action.
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Vala Au

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2006, 06:15:47 PM »
That sounds like it's more performance oriented than injury prevention, meaning doing striking first might exhaust the short term energy bundles and prevent the kind of burst energy needed for throws or grapplin.  Just a guess.

Offline hunter

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2006, 11:13:49 PM »
A bit of Both.

His Eastern Bloc European athletes did very very well
...despite the best the West could do.
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 04:35:28 AM »
This has been discussed in other threads on this forum, but it's a worthy discussion.
I'm happy to find another reader of Tom Kurz's work. 

Everyone that grew up in my generation in the US, the previous and the following has been duped into
thinking that unspecific stretching is the best way to start your activity, be it martial arts or
track & field.  Material published over the last decade from sports researchers states
that static stretching will decrease the strength of the stretched muscle for a short (one hour)
period of time. 

I think the flawed progression may have been:
1) stretching makes you feel good
2) stretching, an activity used to increase your range of motion, was thought to prevent injury.
---> you must stretch

3) An increased range of motion is always better
4) Stretching temporarily increases your range of motion dramatically
--> If you increase your range of motion before you exercise, you will be injured less.

5) You can injure yourself during your warm-up
--> stretch before your warm-up

All of this seemed logical even in the absence of actual evidence.  Modern sports books
do not preach huge ranges of motion.  You do not need to do the side splits to run
a marathon. Rather, authorities state that your activity dictates your
optimal range of motion, and that training to exceed that range will result in diminished
performance within your usual range. 

The conclusion of controlled experiments reported by a Center for Disease Control (CDC) report
states that stretching does not prevent injury in the normal range of motion.  Tom Kurz reports
that stretching reduces strength of that muscle by up to 1/3 for a short period of time (up to an hour).

So, what are we supposed to do now ?  For starters, warm up for 5-10 minutes doing an exercise
with movements within your normal range until you break a sweat.  If you need a greater range
of motion, stretch after your workout while your muscles are still warm.





« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 03:15:45 PM by Gints Klimanis »
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Vala Au

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2006, 04:56:58 AM »
Thank you sir.  That's the best explanation I've seen so far.  I guess I'm a little out of touch with what's been en vogue the last couple decades, but I didn't just fall off the turnip wagon yesterday either.

Appreciate it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 04:59:16 AM by Vala Au »

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 10:42:29 AM »
One thing stretching does do in regards to strength is increase muscle belly length, which increases the length of contraction, which in turn typically allows greater muscle and also tendon strength.  That's body builing 101.  Gints, you know how I feel about tendon strength, good evaluation by the way...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline supertim2003

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2006, 01:45:21 PM »
It does sound like the old school of thought is going by the way side.  We usually do some kind of a full body warm up, after that I like doing core exercises usually using the ball.  Then we train full out for an hour or two and warm down (I like doing forms low and slow for my warm down), we do not always stretch afterward, but I feel a lot better if I do.  We completely avoid ballistic stretching until we a fully warmed up.  Just my 2 cents.
Tim Morrow 1st Degree Black Sash Kajukenbo Tum Pai

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2006, 03:25:34 PM »
Sigung Bono,

Am I making incorrect conclusions with regard to sport-specific training ?   
Body building has a different focus than say, power lifting. Does
it really pay to have a complete range of motion for power lifting ?

It's hard to argue with success.  Did you develop your strength that way ?

There were the old adages that tennis players shouldn't swim,
and swimmers shouldn't bike.  How would you explain these in
modern terms ?

Thank you !
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline hunter

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Re: Stretching-- What's better?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 07:16:12 AM »
"......old adages that tennis players shouldn't swim,
and swimmers shouldn't bike."

I imagine that it's okay for both to do both.
It's just that one shouldn't bicycle very long
or very much as eventually the calves get shortened...

Anyway, not sure why swimming affects tennis other
than slowing down the swing.  But a bit of swimming
can't hurt!  Once a week...

ANYWAY.  Any thoughts on doing JUJITSU / JOINT LOCKS
prior to the KARATE / STRIKING sessions?  (Kurz pointed out
it's better to do this in this way.)
Boston
(where kajukenbo is rare)