Author Topic: A talk with a friend.  (Read 3214 times)

allen73

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A talk with a friend.
« on: May 19, 2006, 10:47:31 AM »

 Aloha,

 I just wanted to share a little bit of a conversation I had with a buddy of mine.We started talking about martial arts like we always do,and the topic of finishing a technique came up.His view was you would never be able to finish a technique like the ones found in Kajukenbo or Kenpo because they are to long do finish on a person.I said it would be possible if the person in question had a great command over his movements,timing, and rhythm .We argued a few minutes more about the effectiveness of such tecniques(but my momma said never to argue with someone who won't listen) so I changed the topic.I ask him what he thought would be more effective.Here's his answer,it's a recipe to fighting effectiveness.

1.Stand up fighting
a.Muay Thai
b.Tiger Schulman's Karate

2.Grappling
a.BJJ
b.Sambo
c.Shootfighting

3.Weapons(Offensive/Defensive)
a.Sayoc Kali
b.Dog Brothers Stickfighting
c.Krav Maga(Gun Disarms)

I told him thats alot to learn he would have to train for about 20 years to become his version of the perfect fighter. I said why not study a system that has all of that training already bulit in,He ask which one is that? Well I replied Kajukenbo it has alll the elements he described and it always allows for you to improve your knowledge by training in over systems.After the brief exchange he had to go his girl was calling.

Kajukenbo Foreva

Offline KBOWARRIOR

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Re: A talk with a friend.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2006, 11:43:06 AM »
Sounds like your buddy doesn't have a clue about the real world of fighting.  Worked in law enforcement for 18 years and I can tell you from personal experience that KAJUKENBO works and you can finish what you start with it.  If your friend still wants to argue, tell him to show up in Vegas and I will show him it works. 8)
Sifu Mark Wallace
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Visalia, California
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Offline Moses Okamoto

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Re: A talk with a friend.
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2006, 12:36:23 PM »
What is "Tiger Schulaman's" Karate??
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Offline Wado

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Re: A talk with a friend.
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2006, 01:08:41 PM »
Maybe this topic should not be in the news section.

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allen73,

Those kinds of questions or comments your buddy made are good topics for debate, but they don't generally lead to anything but to agree to disagree.

Yes, long scripted sequences are very difficult to pull off outside of movies and demos. IMO, the sequences are more for learning purposes to keep the body and mind open to all the details of techniques and in combining separate movements in a fluid flow. In a real situation, maybe most would only use a piece of the total technique to get the job done.

To blindly follow scripted sequences, however, is a bit like being a robot. Robot type fighters can fight, but they are not necessarily good fighters. In fact they are predictable and often have very little imagination.

Your buddy, IMHO, is looking at scripted sequences from the point of view of a robot. Monkey see, monkey do, but the reality of it is that you can't "SEE" it all. There is nothing that truly replaces experience. An experienced eye will "SEE" things that a less experienced eye can easily miss.

One of the points of view that I like when talking about long sequences is that of facing a very strong opponent. There are times when the opponent is so strong that you cannot hurt them effectively without systematically breaking them down first. Many long scripted sequences are a systematic breakdown of the enemy, basically all the things put together to destroy an enemy. Are they realistic, that really depends on how well trained and experienced you are I suppose.

I think the closest analogy I can think of is that of escapes in grappling. Ordinarily if someone grabs a hold of you, you want to counter the threat immediately while protecting yourself. However, let's say they get a good RNC, bearhug, or other hold on you. Now to escape is not a simple one movement anymore because you are in a very bad situation. If it was easy to get out, it would not be called an escape, would it? No, grapplers learn a sequence of moves and principles/strategies to use that MAY work to escape. It may not work, but anyway, it is often very important that this sequence is followed exactly by the numbers. Doing things out of order or skipping parts often means the escape is doomed to fail.

Now if I said, "I will teach you an ESCAPE from a rear naked choke but it might take several minutes for you to get out", I am sure someone will say, that's too long, you will be choked out in 3-7 seconds. So basically my escape can NEVER work or be of any use. To me, to disregard the technique as being useless because it takes too long is an example of a lack of imagination and probably a lack of experience too. I will say that yes, a RNC escape that can take minutes is not my first choice for self-defense or competition, however, if you ever have been in a RNC that you cannot get out of, at least learning this technique for possible long term escape can give you a fighting chance.

Just my opinion.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline NYKaju

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Re: A talk with a friend.
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2006, 02:49:12 PM »
Why would he reference TSK as a good place to learn standup!?!??

Anyway, he makes a good point, and in all honesty his assumption on most Kenpo schools seems to be fairly accurate if you ask me, but judging from what I've heard/seen of Kajukenbo he's way off.

The basic idea your buddy seemed to be getting at, is simplicity over complication. Systems like Muay Thai, boxing, and other ring fighting striking arts derive their effectiveness from their simplicity, and I see them as a base that every martial artist should have. The argument against long sequences of technique (or as I call sequence fighting) is quite a valid one, as long as the techniques are impractical as many modern Kenpo techniques are. A quick search on youtube or google video for Kenpo demonstrations and you'll see what I'm talking about. For example,

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...851539&q=kenpo

Here we have a prime example of the love affair Kenpo guys have with the committed one punch attack, with a total disregard for an opponent that may have the common sense to use both hands, or even dare I say....clinch. As for his groundfighting preferences, I'd say I fully agree, but as someone who's currently training in BJJ, making sure you have an instructor that realizes his arts street limitations or having a background in real fighting situations is key.
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
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Judo under Mark Staniszewski
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allen73

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Re: A talk with a friend.
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2006, 12:10:28 PM »
Aloha,

 Moses, to answer your question Tiger Schulman's Karate is a hybrid martial art which combines karate, kickboxing, and grappling.You see them avdvertise alot here in the NorthEast as Sibok Mayors will tell you.They have TV commercials and perform at Madison Square Garden from time to time. IMO I think they're trying to play catch up with Kajukenbo.Take care.

Offline NYKaju

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Re: A talk with a friend.
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2006, 01:13:12 PM »
Aloha,

 Moses, to answer your question Tiger Schulman's Karate is a hybrid martial art which combines karate, kickboxing, and grappling.You see them avdvertise alot here in the NorthEast as Sibok Mayors will tell you.They have TV commercials and perform at Madison Square Garden from time to time. IMO I think they're trying to play catch up with Kajukenbo.Take care.

I wouldn't even say they are playing catch-up....they are just blowing with the winds, jumping on whatevers the next fad rather than actually seeking to teach practical martial arts. I've seen them do everything from traditional japanese style karate classes, to XMA, and now this overpriced MMA garbage.
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline Moses Okamoto

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Re: A talk with a friend.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2006, 07:38:25 PM »
My pick to be a better all around fighter:

Join the Pat Militech camp and learn their style of fighting!

or learn:

1. Muay Thai
2. Wrestling
3. KAJUKENBO
4. Gracie Jujitsu

This is what I am planning!
Martial Arts - The Evolving Art Form