"The street" and hand positioning

[Wado]

Mr. Mayors,

Im going to be the antithesis here, the devils advocate -

There is a legitimate time and place for that "chambered" weapon, in my experience, and opinion, as well as training. Theres a split second of positive negative push/pull, in/out flow, during various real time  operations, where in the  heat of conflict, you can safely and naturally  end up with that hand back there deep or lower than the modern MMA concepts advocate. Add a leg back behind it, anchored for that time slice. When it (punch, or palm heel) goes back out and rotates over into the face, ribs, or solar plexis its a show stopper. Im not talking about tournaments, or sport fighting.  NOt every self defense conflict is against an octagon  fighter, Some guys are big, and heavy, and tough, mean, drunk (numb and fearless), and you gotta have some big heavy load, and you got time to safely do it, and if you dont seriously sting them with some mass times velocity, youre in trouble... I guess the best analogy is baseball - a "Bunt" versus a "grand slam"

Oh don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for everything. To use another example from a recent question one of my students asked me; "Why do we practice drills from horse stances in class if we don't fight from that stance?" I thought for a second and then told him to attack me, so he put his hands up and took a few swings at me, and as soon as I saw my opening I took him down, planting myself into a solid horse stance by the side of his body with his arm locked out over my knee. From there I had the ability to strike (from chamber would be quite effective here now that I think about it) or break, or go into any other array of techniques. This doesn't mean that a horse stance is my stance of choice but rather I'd use it when the time called for it, just as I'd use a chambered strike or push when the time called for it.

You make alot of good points there, and have given me alot to think about so I thank you Tim!

Good example. As some would say, "timing is everything", but as an old instructor of mine used to tell me, "there is no such thing as timing, it is all skill". I add to that, although it is skill, good timing feels like luck, good luck.

I commend you on getting a point across to your student. You and I seem to differ in ways. I pretty much have to tell my training partner how to attack me or to have them attack slowly for me to demonstrate a particular technique. Contrary to that, if going full speed without knowing what is to come next, I don't think of what I'm going to do, it just happens. I just do it and by the time I think of it, I'm already done doing it, so to speak. I just hold back enough for control, in case I need to bail out for safety.

Anyway, to find meaning and value in things, sometimes it is good to slow it down, control the environment and see what comes up. Full speed is good for experience and intensity, but it might not be so good at teaching the meaning of technique. IMHO.

[Brandi Ross]

Anyway, to find meaning and value in things, sometimes it is good to slow it down, control the environment and see what comes up. Full speed is good for experience and intensity, but it might not be so good at teaching the meaning of technique. IMHO.

Wade,

This is so true.  Sometimes we do need slow things down to get a point a cross, show the proper technique, or help the uke understand what is coming.  I've used the terms "cooperative and non-cooperative" drills to help with the learning process.  The cooperative drills go slower to teach technique and begin the muscle memory aspect.  As the concept is developed, the speed is picked up.  "non-cooperative" drills would be like contolled sparring to full sparring.... you don't know what is coming next.  Just another thought....

[Wado]

At a risk of being off topic for this thread... great input Brandi.

I was also shown the value of slow or half-speed training against resistance both in knife training and in grappling. I guess this would fall into the category of non-cooperative but since it is at half-speed, there is some cooperation in that people agree not to go full out.

I bring this up because when training say knife counters at half-speed, I sort of want uke to try to hit me with his other hand and give resistance. So I guess even when we cooperate with each other there should always be an element of appropriate resistance for training purposes.

I have a bit of a story. We would do a lot of half-speed sparring in karate when I was in it twenty years ago, and I never really figured out what good it was. For instance, I couldn't do a takedown at half-speed, so I thought half-speed was worthless. Years later in BJJ, we also did a lot of half-speed grappling. Only I got a clue that we were working technique.

I learned to do takedowns at half speed. I felt like a dummy when I realized that the reason I could not do the takedowns at half speed years before was because my timing and technique sucked. If my technique was good enough to take someone down at half speed with resistance, it was all the better to work at full speed.

Of course full speed has other factors such as more resistance, more use of strength, and probably more adrenaline... but to actually work on technique, the slower speed training seems one of the best methods for developing good technique.

[rockatear]

Hi NYKempo,

So you are saying that you feel that training experiences (and mishaps such as that) inside the dojo can translate into knowledge for reality? Well if so I'd agree, and say that I'd figure that was the point of training, but I can say from experience that you'd be amazed how many people disagree with that basic concept

I guess it depends on the style of martial arts you're training in.  In Kajukenbo we train to fight in the street, in fact, it is the basis of the founding of our art.  Sijo and the other co-founders wanted to be able to fight and protect themselves because of living in a dangerous area in Hawaii.  Some one here probably knows the correct quote and I think it’s from Sijo and it goes something like "it's not a training if there's no blood left on the floor".  Course, this was back in 1947, but a tradition carried on today in many schools-- not so much the blood but training for reality street-fighting.  And, we are an art and therefore we also train in forms and techniques be they punch arts or grab arts, grappling, joint locks, pinyans and katas, etc.

Might I ask, with that kind of background and experience would you say you agree with the basic point of my comment? That moreso than anything else the key to not being involved in such an assault would be training in how to be aware of your surroundings and the knowledge on how to avoid certain circumstances that might put you at risk? Or is the number of people that experience such scenarios truly women getting abducted outside of supermarkets or in their homes, hence unavoidable? Obviously scenario-based self defense training is key to surviving or escaping such situations, but would you say that mental preparation should be the focus?

First of all, your statement suggests that these rapes could be avoided if these people had just been aware of their surroundings and thereby placing blame on the victim for basically living their lives.  Having said that, all the self-defense classes I take and refer people too begin with being aware of your surroundings and of being at risk in certain settings.  Many circumstances that these women were in were unavoidable.  A young teen walking to school, a van stops, a man jumps out and she’s grabbed into an afternoon of hell; an older woman waiting at a bus stop and same thing happens.  A police officer checking out a routine matter around a garbage dump slightly off the street and with a flashlight, and a gun, ends up being raped by two criminals he’s knows as they have a long rap sheet and he’s dealt with him before.

Lack of mental preparation is not the reason these people were assaulted.  I don't think it's one or the other or even stepping stairs as in first you learn this, then this, and then that.  To assume so is to be caught in linear thinking.  It is balance, IMO.  Practicing combat training or my preference being reality-based self-defense is inclusive of mental preparation and vice-a-versa.  The example I used of women, men and children taking self-defense courses is that (1) it doesn't take as long as committed martial arts and (2) it is meant for protection in the street.  Such training is inclusive of all that you mention in terms of awareness of one's surrounding and avoiding certain circumstance.  As an added note, many folks who are sexually assaulted know their assailants-77% seems to be the stats at this time.  So what we're looking at also is defending against someone you trust and/or love or is supposed to be someone you think you can trust.  Nonetheless there are always stranger assaults.  Either way, awareness of one's surroundings is paramount to one's safety.  Yet, you can be aware and still be trapped and the next thing you know you're fighting for your life.  But.  If I had to make a choice I’d take physical self-defense over mental preparation.

Watching the video on CNN that Sigung Mark put up is an excellent example of this.  The man who was a Marine explained how he was aware of his surroundings, that a car was following him and that he needed to get into a lit area so that the car following him, which he thought was the police, would be able to see him clearly.  Having gotten into the light it was a bunch of young people who attacked him as well as carrying a lethal weapon.  He had a pocket-knife.  All that to say, he had the mental preparation and yet he still had to fight. 

I live in a dangerous neighborhood although not so dangerous as some.  I live in San Pablo, CA right on the border of Richmond, CA which last week or the week before had five shootings all in one day, 3 of which the victims ended up dead.  I had to go out last night at 1:30 am as I’ve been out on disability and at the same time a report was due which is connected to our funding and had to be done in a short timeline.  My parking lot is a magnet for a lot of folks because it’s a shortcut to the highway and also used by industry such as trucks with tar, cement, paint, grit and sandstone which all blow into our windows and makes for a pain in the neck mess.  (I am moving as soon as I can visualize taking on another move from 2 years ago ).

So I left my house with an escrima stick in full view so anybody who wants to think about engaging with me is forewarned.  At the same time, I have a knife on my side that is not visible.  Mental awareness of surroundings?—you bet.  If something’s going to kick off that I can’t avoid than I’m armed with weapons of my choice.  Ordinarily I wouldn’t be leaving at that time.  I might come home at that time, but that’s a different story.

With respect,

[KajuJKDFighter]

A stick and Knife....sweet!!!......KaJu

[rockatear]

A stick and Knife....sweet!!!......KaJu

Just learning from my teachers...doing what I'm supposed to do...learning the curriculum and improvising when necessary.  I think Great Grandmaster Gaylord would be proud...I also left the house dressed with one of his newly designed baseball caps .

[KajuJKDFighter]

I'm proud!!

[rockatear]

Thanks Sigung!

Respectfully,