Author Topic: Chauan Fa today  (Read 55122 times)

Offline Steve

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2006, 08:27:25 PM »
 ;) Thats the way Jason

  Let talk about the grab art  Does some change?

   Grab one from the chuan fa branch or the WHKD(old version)

 #1 Grab counter
Attack: As the opponet steps forward to grab your lapels with both hands
Counter: You cup strike both elbows and deliver a Rt. front snap kick to the groin simultaneously. Keeping in contact with the elbows by grabbing them, Right foot then plants down as you immediately step off to the left of the attacker into a horse stance. Using your thumbs you dig into the radial nerves on top of the elbows and twist the arms inward so they are placed close to each other. Circle your hands into the inside of the attackers elbows using the back of your hands to open him up. Follow up with double wrist "crane" strikes to the temples then roll your hands down to double chop strikes to the collar bones. Move into a Rt. cat stance and pull your hands back into your body, with Rt. hand palm down on top of Left palm up. Shoot forward into a forward bow stance and deliver a Rt. Horizontal twisting chop to the neck and a Lt. twisting Horizontal chop to the floating ribs at the sametime. ( Sifu Fajardo )

    Does this grab one have be change in the new WHKD  grab 1


   Thank
   Steeve
Steve Malette
Kajukenbo /chuan fa  Honor to GM Gelinas,Sifu Baralis.Sifu  Fajardo
Ng Ga kuen Kung fu(GM Ark Yueh Wong system) under Sifu Seming Ma
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2006, 10:47:45 AM »
That's the same  ;D
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
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Offline Steve

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2006, 04:26:25 PM »
 ;)

  Thank Jason...

  Does the punch combination and kick combo are change ... ::)
Steve Malette
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Offline SifuLen

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2007, 06:22:49 PM »
Visiting Chuan Fa co-founder GM Al Dela Cruz in Kalihi.
Sifu's Tim Mills &  Leonard Torres of Denver, Colo. Oct. 2007
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 06:44:54 PM by SifuLen »
Sifu Leonard Torres 3rd degree
Lineage; Sijo-SGM Halbuna-SGM Conway-Me.
At least on the tree but trained with many others.
With all respect to Oahu & Mainland.

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2007, 07:23:52 PM »
Change (ie evolution) is the nature of WHKD.  While it can be a bit frustrating at times (especially as an instructor), in the end it is our greatest strength.

As should be within all Kaj...  Well put Brother.  Stay Progressive. 

Dean 8)

Offline rockatear

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2007, 09:39:43 PM »
Sounds complicated, Sifu Jason.  Shouldn't some moves be as simplified as possible? My experience is that as we move forward the grab arts or punch attacks or forms become more complicated. I think the point I'm trying to make is shouldn't we have some actions that remain simple and still effective?

I know it is embedded in the Kajukenbo philisophy "change". The grab art 1 described sounds like one that was built on a simpler one. So, does it mean then that the old grab art 1 is no longer sufficient for a requirement or does it now mean the student must know both?

No disrespect...just curious and too, sometimes matter of "change" comes up for me during my training. I may be taught one form a certain way by one instructor and then slightly different by another and then maybe even by another.  It can be as simple as a wrist movement or as a takedown from a twisted horse to a kneeling position. Our instructors always welcome our feedback, but sometimes....

Respectfully,
Shirley Phelps, blue blelt, Hand to Hand Kajukenbo Self-Defense Center, Oakland, CA, www.handtohandkajukenbo.com, Gaylord Method, Chief Head Instructors:  Sifus Jen Resnick and Sonya Richardson

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2007, 01:13:59 AM »
Shirley,

I think we may be talking about different things when we write "change."  There are certainly variations between instructors in WHKD, as you have mentioned, but more generally I mean change in terms of the fact that WHKD constantly evolves as an art, based on the continued development of the art by GM Al Dacascos and others.  Typically, how it works in the style is that each WHKD black belt focuses on certain aspects of the art (ground fighting, inside fighting, and stick fighting being examples).  They go out and seek further education in those arts, test them and their incorporation into WHKD, and bring that back to GM Dacascos and other senior WHKD black belts, who then (with GM Dacascos' blessing of course), disseminate that information to the other black belts, who then pass it onto their students.  It is very similar to how academic fields publish journal articles that constantly revise the "modern theory" of a given subject.  Typically, evolution doesn't mean more complicated, although it can be more complicated in a few select cases.  A lot of WHKD is predicated around adapting to situations when the first part of your technique/combination doesn't work as planned; so we often have a lot of "buzz-sawing" techniques that add more strikes into a single movement (such as a punch snapping into an elbow) to make sure we maximize the chance for success in a confrontation.  A lot of the perceived complication in some WHKD techniques comes from this, but in reality most of the moves are rather simple and high percentage and are just linked together. 

A recent example of evolution in WHKD has been work by several WHKD black belts into dealing with the increased popularity (and thus prevalence) of BJJ that can be found on the streets in modern days.  Dealing with random gun violence and terrorist attacks is another area of active interest by certain members as well.  My personal area of interest is in developing better teaching methods for some of the techniques that have generally been the hardest for newer students to learn and gain proficiency with.

In response to your grab art 1 example, I can't comment on its evolution from Original Method to the WHKD version, because I don't know Original Method Grab Art 1 (although I think I learned it at a seminar, and according to memory it wasn't similar at all).  From my general experiences with the Original Method, I can say that WHKD flows differently than the Original Method (some say it's softer or more Chinese-like, but those aren't quite accurate terms IMHO), and thus some of the differences between the styles simply reflect the way the arts flow. 
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline rockatear

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2007, 12:56:45 PM »
Hi Sifu Jason.  I didn't focus in on the section "Chauan Fa"...I forget sometimes the very distinct styles, methods and branches. From my signature line you can see I practice the Gaylord Method. Our grab art 1 is very basic:

Step back right leg
double palm heel strikes under elbows
Right front snap kick to the groin
Return to forward stance

Thanks for the clarification on styles and input on "evolution". I like the analogy of academic journal articles. Counseling and Psychology have been adapting theory and practice in the past 30 years according to the needs of clients, while maintaining their basic foundation depending on what they're style they are practicing.

with respect,
Shirley Phelps, blue blelt, Hand to Hand Kajukenbo Self-Defense Center, Oakland, CA, www.handtohandkajukenbo.com, Gaylord Method, Chief Head Instructors:  Sifus Jen Resnick and Sonya Richardson

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2007, 02:52:27 PM »
Professor Gerry,

This thread got resurrected and was previously comparing some of the differences between specific Chuan Fa and WHKD techniques.  In this process I had made a comment about how WHKD evolves its techniques, since the WHKD techniques are based on GM Al Dacascos' personal expression of Chuan Fa, and how he saw fit to change some things, and the thread was resuscitated to discuss some of those comments.  Sorry if my more recent comments are a bit out of place on this thread; you are right that they pertain to WHKD.

Shirley,

Glad I could be of some help.  It sounds like your Grab art 1 is nearly identical to the first move of the WHKD and Ch'uan Fa grab counters.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2007, 01:58:05 AM »
Our grab art 1 is very basic:

Step back right leg
double palm heel strikes under elbows
Right front snap kick to the groin
Return to forward stance

Thanks, Shirley.  Our Grab Art #1 is similar.

Grab Art 1   (Opponent two-hand grabs your chest)
  1  Underhand grab both his arms at triceps, pull his arms into your chest
  2  Left Step, Right Groin kick, Right Step back
  3  Left Step, Right Belly kick, Right Step back
  4  Left Short Inward strike to break at wrists as you
     Right Step back into a Left Cover
  5  Left Step, launch simultaneous Right Groin kick & Right Punch to Right Temple, stepping
past to Left Cover       behind him




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Offline Prof. Ben Fajardo

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2007, 12:32:01 AM »
Shaolin Chuan Fa is such that it encompasses many styles tiger, crane, leopard etc etc.. As you may all recall from the Kung Fu TV series and through writings when a shaolin monk mastered one animal form he traveled to another temple passing on and learning a new animal form and on and on......

What modern Chuan Fa is considered I havent a clue? But in my experience and what I have seen of today's Chuan Fa. It seems as it is the mythology of understanding the application of how to blend various Chinese arts together with other arts.....  I would look to the root for defining any new method of Chuan Fa, and consider any additions to be a hybrid or an evolving of the art.

I trained in a school that believes the original 5 animals are Chuan Fa in its purest sense and that all other arts flow from it directly. The additional arts are the contributions of an instructors exprience, who have studied and added to it in a positive manner or in some case of just a rip off of someone elses work and calling it something else.

The Chuan Fa I have researched is the original 5 animal styles. I call what I do Chuan Fa only because it contains some of the original . What I practice and teach is mainly designed for what actually works on the street or in real life situations and is such that anyone can use and utilize it and be effective. Flashiness and impractical movements is only going to get your butt kicked on the street and doesnt help those who need real self defense that works. That is just my opinion
Professor Ben Fajardo-Kajukenbo WHKD under GM Al Dacascos.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2008, 12:38:22 AM »
I remember reading some old KAA documents from when it started and I don't remember it reading that way..
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Offline David V. Amiccuci

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2008, 12:56:54 AM »
Prof. Gerry

I can share with you what had been passed down to me from one of the GM that you speak of. I was told that several sienors back in the day were asked to incorperate Chuan Fa into their methods and only a handfull actually completed what was asked, others just began to use the name without the training. Ahgung Tony Ramos was one of those that did get the training.   

In referance to Ahgung Ramos training secretly with GM Dacascos, this is the first time that I have herd of any secret training. Ahgung Ramos made it known where all of knowledge came from in our method. It was common knowledge that Ahgung Ramos trained with GM Dacascos to adopt Chuan Fa into our method.

 And although GM Dacascos was his Jr. at the time and some of the more seinors in other methods may of had issues with learning from a Jr.  Ahgung new the value of the Chuan Fa and the knowledge that GM Dacascos had to share with our method.  Ahgung Ramos was known for being eclectic and for giving credit to where his knowledge came from.

As far as a certificate I'm not sure if one existed. GM Dacascos would have to answer that one. In referance to being recognized you would have to contact GM Dacascos, I'm not sure of the actual post but GM Dacascos actually stated that Ahgung Ramos was one of the old timers of Chuan Fa.  I will try and find the post and add it later.

Respectfully
Grand Master David V. Amiccuci
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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2008, 09:06:47 PM »
Aloha Brother David,

I am aware that Sijo had instructed GM Dacascos to teach the Chu‚Äôan Fa system to the practitioners on the mainland.  Some of them resisted because he was their Jr.      


Where did you get your info?  Who was it that resisted?

Interesting story.

Tim

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2008, 09:34:23 PM »
Aloha Brother David,

I am aware that Sijo had instructed GM Dacascos to teach the Chu‚Äôan Fa system to the practitioners on the mainland.  Some of them resisted because he was their Jr.      


Where did you get your info?  Who was it that resisted?

Interesting story.

Tim

It's pretty well known now days.  I was told it several years ago by GM Dacascos.  He explained that it was his instructions from Sijo to teach the mainland (Calif) instructors the "Chuan Fa" techniques that had been developed by Sijo and GM's DelaCruz and Dacascos.  And GM DelaCruz was to teach the instructors in Hawaii.
Most of the mainland instructors were senior to Dacascos, and felt uncomfortable with the idea of being taught by a junior.  So Tony Ramos and Charles Gaylord adopted their own chuan fa elements into their teachings, hence the "Gaylord" and "Ramos" methods.  Aleju Reyes preferred the "hard style" techniques and got Sijo's permission to stay with the original hard style techniques. 
This is the history according to GM Dacascos.  And I'm sure Sigung Amiccuci can expand on the history from his father in laws (Ahgung Ramos) point of view.  As could GGM Gaylord.       
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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