Author Topic: Handling a Grappler  (Read 26382 times)

formlessfist

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Handling a Grappler
« on: June 02, 2003, 04:50:27 PM »
A lot of people nowadays are kind of looking down on striking arts due largely in part to the Brazillian Jiu Jitsu craze that has swept America. A lot of guys I know have started training in BJJ and such, claiming that it is vastly superior to striking arts or at least more striking oriented foms. Now, in a controlled environment with a mat on the ground Ive seen BJJ guys do the same thing nearly everytime they get into a fight. They exchange maybe one or two blows and then immediately go for the clinch and take the fight to the ground. Most people I've witnessed simply flop around on the ground while the BJJist just smothers them. After some flopping the BJJist is usually able to get some hold on them and end the fight. Now this is all well and good for 1v1 fighting in a controlled enviroment, but try taking the fight to the ground on the street and you run the risk of getting seriously injured!

My question is, aside from having a decent amount of BJJ training or training in some other grappling art, what is the best way to handle a grappler? How can you avoid being taken to the ground 3 seconds into the fight? I mean, can you? What are some of the ways that a grappler can be dismantled by a Kajukenboist?

Offline Nagi

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2003, 07:47:05 AM »

Just remember BBJ is a sport and since it is a sport we can not do eye rakes/pokes, groin shots, no kicking if the opponent is down or with a shoe on, no fish hooking, no small joint malnipulations, no hair pulling (if they have any) That's part of our whole game right?
Lately grapplers have been doing alot more cross training in striking and strikers have been doing the same. You don't have to be an awesome grappler you need just to understand it and keep your self safe. Look at Maurice Smith Kickboxer/striker he learn at bit of grappling and did really well, he even won a few big matches Mark Coleman, Marco Ruas, Dan Severn, Conan Silviera. I know I didn't fully answer your question

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Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2003, 08:17:21 AM »
If I can reach out and grab you, then I can strike you a lot quicker and cause a lot more damage.

When these guys jump in at your legs just shift back and slam them on the back of the neck at the base of the skull.  

Everytime someone goes to hit you or grab you they leave themselves wide open.  Use that.  Don't fight fire with fire.  Use water.  Flow with their movement.  Don't try to fight the same game as them.  Be patient and let them make the mistakes.

Brazillian Jujitsu is NOT the best art out there.  There arrogance makes me ill.  I don't understand why most people get caught up with all the TV hype with the UFC crap.  Real situations have no rules.  I will pull your hair, lock your fingers, and bite you if I need too.


Offline cirillo

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2003, 09:05:43 AM »
I have worked with many grapplers.  I have not found one yet where I didn't have access to their eyes at some point.  Personally, I don't bother hitting them and don't mind letting them grab me (I like to know where their hands are).  I just search for their eyes with my fingers and when I find them, I dig in up to my wrist (figuratively speaking in training, but you get the idea).  I have never had one continue past that point (obviously, a great deal of control is necessary to prevent permanent damage).

The main point is there are many techniques that will work.  With grappling, flowing with the technique is necessary.  Keep your head and work within the techniques, don't fight it.  BJJ practitioners are supposed to train to be hit (some do and some don't like being hit).  So if you hit, it should not be traditional strikes (punching), it should be specific gouges, rips, digs, breaks and/or pressure points.

For multiman situations BJJ is useless.  I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline rookie

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2003, 10:17:55 AM »
I used to remember when royce gracie first came into the ufc scene and he dominated.  At least until the strikers learned how to grapple a little and how to handle grapplers.  Grapplers like in bjj are good at making you do what they want up close but at a distance they belong to you.  One trick I learned in wreslting to keep  grapplers at bay is when he crouches down to clinch you you crouch down even lower.  keep him face to face and when he goes in your right there level with him and that is where you throw your strikes.  Straight to the nose, eyes, temple, etc.  I knew a lot of bjj practitioners and many of them were cocky.  They believed the hype about it being the absolute best.  Not all of them are so bad though.  Bjj is a great art but is not complete.  It's still a yin without a yang.   :)
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Offline DACS

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2003, 06:05:55 AM »
To formless fist:
When you go into battle it is always wise to learn as much about your adversary as possible. With that said...
Just remember if your talking about events such as the UFC or PRIDE, the fighter with the KO's over the grapplers had knowledge in grappling also. Maurice Smith trained with Franf Shamrock and formed the Alliance. Pete Williams trains with the Lion's Den. BJ Penn is a world jiu jitsu champ, Vitor Belfort- jiujitsu champ, and the list goes on and on. Now for the street...Kempo Sensei mentions shifting back and slamming the back of the skull forcing his head>face into the ground---in wrestling it is a basic move called sprawling and is really common in high school wrestling, I've seen many broken noses with this move and it is one of my personal favorites. Also you hear this a lot "if I can reach him, I can gouge his eyes...guess what, he can do it too. Being that they're in that position more, they MIGHT be more prepared for it.
In no way am I saying that any type of grappling is superior to striking arts, I'm just saying that it is always good to know more about other styles. I personally try to learn other styles just so that it'd be easier for me to defend against it. I've seen to many styles practice defending against takedowns against people who don't qualify as a good takedown artist. I'm glad that we're more open minded than that.
Now to answer you question "aside from having BJJ or grappling experience..."   I carry a spyderco in my front pocket...I call it my anti-choke device. If by chance I'm taken down or outnumbered or outmanuvered on the ground, that's my emergency weapon. And yes I know how to use it. It is my belief that when you know how to use it, then you understand it and can defend against it better.
And of course I still prefer striking, but I just had to make a point that we can't neglect the ground fighters. If we chose to turn a blind eye then we only limit ourselves.

I hope that I haven't offended anyone by my posts. I have learned alot from this forum and it's always good to share our opinions with each other.

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Karazenpo

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2003, 08:46:04 AM »
I think we're missing something here. This is the Kajukenbo Cafe and the vast majority of us are Kajukenbo and Kajukenbo related subsystems, right? Kajukenbo TEACHES grappling. It's part of the curriculum and why? because it's an important part of fighting. It's 'reality'. In the ideal siutation we can always say we can poke him in the eyes, do this, do that before he can take us down. That is a total, unequivical untruth and most definitely develops a false sense of security. It is very plausible you will go down in a good street fight, especially against a grappler but you could also simply trip up, fall over a curbing, slip in sand, ice or snow or like I said- be taken dow! Do not ever underestimate your opponent. Counters to takedowns do work but so do counters to punches to the face. Do you mean to tell me that once you know punch counters to the face you will never get hit? Foolish, isn't it? Therefore we all have done contact sparring to make sure we have the ability to absorb punishment and take hits, right? To have a complete martial art you must practice grappling. Our Kajukenbo founders knew this becuase they experienced it in the red light districts of, at the time, a rather lawless territory. Do not rely on counters because as we all know nothing is 100 per cent and just like you can get punched, you can find yourself 'rolling around' on the sidewalk also. If you do not incorporate this part of Kajukenbo in your curriculum then you are doing your students a disservice. It's all part of the big picture of combatives. ;)  Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Offline sifutimg

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2003, 04:40:06 PM »
I have to agree with Shihan Shuras on this point.  Grappling definitely IS a part of our art.  It should be explored holistically along with the striking arts of course.  I have learned much from my BJJ friends and there are so many scenarios we may find ourselves in on the street that we are totally missing the boat if we don't study and create the understanding to deal with a grappler.  I teach my students to think of an opponent as better skilled, better strategists, have better understanding of position, stronger, and faster.  I believe the minute you get to comfortable, that will be your demise.  I remember Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson.  In the study of grappling, we work to understand the positions, the holds, the clinch, learn to feel the weakness in weight distribution and such, but also point out the stuff they don't allow in the UFC which is the stuff already pointed out in this discussion i.e. eye pokes, etc.  

Our striking as Kajukenboists, is I feel is the most efficient relating to self defense, but if you come up against a good grappler then you better know how that game is played to.  So if we talk of a progression when faced with a grappler then I would have to say striking is first and foremost, if however this person does get their mitts on you and you go to the ground, get out of the position as quickly as possible and back to your feet.  As was mentioned in other posts, you don't want to find that chard of glass lying on the ground and end up having it embedded in your face or your head being pressed into that curb and now you can't move your head, not to mention having to deal with multiple opponents.  It really sucks being kicked while this #$%@hole is doing nothing but concentrating on keeping a hold of your foot while their partner is kicking you (My left kidney was damaged due to a scenario just like this).

If I may offer we practice a core skill that I call body wrapping.  You have one person do nothing but try to get a solid hold on your arms, legs, head, waist, anything they can grab and take you to the ground with while the other person uses position and wiping techniques to prevent this from happening.  Start out slowly and work up the skill ladder on this one.  It's a difficult drill.  Remember to keep your nose and belly button in alignment and you will also find how strong your legs are as well as getting low works very well as you place your center lower than your opponents, but if the leg strength isn't behind keeping your center low and alignment in check, then you will have a tendency to compromise that nose/belly button alignment.  After folks get somewhat proficient you can introduce different scenarios where a person attacks with strikes then grabs or even visa versa.  Then go to multiple people trying to grab you.  It's a really fun drill.

Anyway, good question to post.  I hope everyone is staying cool during these hot summer months.

Yours in training,
Sifu Tim Gagnier
Grandmaster Tim Gagnier
Student of Great Grandmaster Charles Gaylord & Grandmaster Sid Lopez
Chief Instructor Pacific Wind Kajukenbo
Student Forever
Yamhill, Oregon

Offline Brandi Ross

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2003, 08:44:42 PM »
I agree with Professor Scott.  Judo makes a good starting point.  You learn the basics of throws, sweeps, breakfalls, etc.  I know this first hand as I started Judo only a few months ago at 31.  Believe me, I wish I had started with this years ago.  My body may not be as sore as it is now.  Judo has differently given me other things to consider.  I may not be the best against a grappler, but at least I know what I am maybe looking for and be more prepared to deal with the situation.  Take a fellow student and spend an extra 5-10 minutes after class and work on grappling or ground work.  Any little bit can help.  The more you do it, the better you will become.

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Offline DACS

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2003, 03:33:38 AM »
Along with our strikes, kicks and warm up excercises, judo breakfalls is a must as part of our basic curriculum. We must know these before we can practice any techniques or sparring. It is a huge safety factor in our training. To be able to practice our techniques over and over, our partners must be able to safely break their fall so that they can get back up to do it again and again and again. After that we work on sweeps, throws and takedowns. The locks and breaks are incorporated into the techniques. And this is just part of our basics as I am sure it is for most of us.
I like the turn that this topic has taken. It acknowledges the openmindedness of Kajukenboans.
And thanks to the professors and other instructors for responding to these topics...your years of experiece really shows in the way you explain yourselves. I feel like a small fish in a big pond.
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Karazenpo

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2003, 08:04:00 AM »
Dacs, your curriculum is essentially the same as what I do and the same as what my instructor does, Gm. S. George Pesare-Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu- a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. In my opinion, mat work toughens people up and keeps them there. It is a live art where nothing is really 'pulled' and you feel the bumps and bruises just like boxing and kick boxing. It helps prepare one for the street. Imho, you're right on the money with your post! ;)   Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Offline DACS

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2003, 05:42:21 AM »
Mat work is great, and it's a lot of fun. Though some times we practice the breakfalls on the floor, and when I first started training, the gym floor was wood. Then we moved to a recreation center where the floor was tiled on concrete...OUCH! Improper breakfalls don't feel too good if you know what I mean. I'm happy to say that our school has moved back to our old gym, though I'm sure that my sifu will find someplace hard to practice it on. It really helped us to learn our breakfalls quickly.
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TODD

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2003, 12:52:28 AM »
Its fairly simple eyes, throat, groin, bite, scratch, and anything goes.  A real fight has no rules.
We train to do all the above, including breaking bones with certain techiques.  We even train to kill or
maim pending the attack before us.  Kajukenbo is advanced street fighting.  We train for survival.  
Of couse it has many other qualities as well.  The point is Kajukenbo is not a "sport".  Would it
be safe to assume these high profile grapplers have "street" techniques in their own arts?  Possibly.
In the ring its a toss up?  On the street again who knows?  I think it depends on the individual.
In the UFC Royce Gracie lasted.  But so did Tank Abbott.  

Offline DACS

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2003, 04:29:04 AM »
Todd- I agree that it would be safe to assume that a high profile grappler would have street techniques in their own arts. A lot of our techniques contain jujitsu locks, judo throws and other grappling type moves. But it's the realistic approach that we take in the application of them. Nowadays when you are a well known fighter/sportfighter, the ability of using those skills in the street will always come into question. So I see a lot of people trying to prove the street effectiveness of their styles. And if we assume that they don't have street techniques, it would give them an advantage if they do(element of surprize). When in a confrontation or an actual fight, I'll always assume that the other guy has skills and street savvy. As I'm sure we all were, I was taught to expect the worst. But to be prepared for it. So I'm sure that these other guys practice (or at least try to) for street effectiveness, but is it secondary to their sport training? I would think so.
Kajukenbos main purpose to me is street survival and effectiveness. However I have benefitted in so many other ways.
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TODD

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2003, 10:58:45 AM »
So true.  Confidence is one thing and underestimating is another.  I was always taught to expect
the worse and hope for best.  I suppose thats why we practice every counters re-counter.   :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2003, 11:00:03 AM by Todd Reiner »