Author Topic: Handling a Grappler  (Read 26383 times)

Offline kajudaddy

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2003, 01:32:26 PM »
i think sun tzu said it best."know your enemy better than you know yourself"(or something like that lol).its not a bad idea to cross train in bjj to know the counter techniques.approximatley 5 years ago prof ray brought in a bjj guy to work with the class.we adapted most of the techniques to our style and developed counters for them that are part of our cirriculum..
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Offline d-bone1

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2003, 09:54:15 PM »
This question is HUGE !  I thuroughly enjoyed reading everyones posts.  I trained for a short while with a gentleman in Combat-Jujutsu.  Guess what- strikes and low kicks were a big part of their arsenal.  BJJ is not the only type of grappling.  One of the counters I learned from C-J was very similar to Punch Counter 10 (Emperado's method).  So what I learned from all of this was the importance of being proficient in your art and staying in your element.  Also, know what comes easiest to you and what your limitations are.  Grappling IS a part of Kajukenbo, but correct me if I am wrong by saying most of what we learn is how not to go to the ground and how to COUNTER a grappler once you have gone to the ground to get into a position to destroy him with strikes and/or breaking a limb. In my opinion, to beet a grappler you must stay in your element and take him out of his. >:(

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2003, 11:07:29 PM »
I too am from the origional method.  Every encounter starts from the feet.  We are taught to destroy on that principal.  But at the same time things can and do go wrong.  I am comfortable with the origional method.  I believe it has what I need.  In fact in my line of work it has proven very effective.  But at the same time I have not been taken to the ground, I have took to to ground.  I do not know the outcome if I am ever taken.  And yet I am still confident...I want to go home to my family at the end of the day....that alone supercedes all else, hence determination.  Then again more extensive ground work is one avenue if the opportunity ever comes up I will not pass on.

Offline dshioi

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2004, 12:16:21 AM »
 ::)Train in all ways, then there will be no need to criticize any other way because all ways are also your way.........
Isn't Kajukenbo about always seeking new techniques?
This is what I love about Kajukenbo, that it is open to all styles and not rigid like traditional arts where there is only one way and one way only.
Sijo said, "Be creative"

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2004, 01:57:29 AM »
To handle a grappler you must understand  grappling. An experienced fighter who knows striking will attack with strikes to get your head up or you leaning back before shooting for a takedown.  Also he can time or bait your attack to duck under for a takedown. I've been in the arts 31 yrs, and a striker foremost, boxed 15 yrs, but I've been tecahing grappling 15 yrs now. Believe me if a grappler has a good enough shoot, no one will stop him. Pushing him to the ground won't work unless he is slow, inexperienced or you are just blazing fast. Knowing how to grapple and the balance involved will keep you on your feet to be able to strike if that is what you chose. We train to fight multiple fighters while on the ground, since you can be knocked down and trip and end up there. You can be successful ther, I know.  Cross train and constantly grow, even the jujitsu of old is completely different now. You have to continually train to stay up on techniques that progress.  .."Remember when your not training someone else is training to kick your asp"......
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Offline Dean Goldade

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2004, 07:11:20 AM »
Great posts...

Kajukenbo has always been an art of adaptation. We learn as we go, and that is how we grow.

These days there is no excuse to not train grappling. There are so many instructors out there and so many ways to get exposure.. Kicking, Striking, Trapping, Grappling & Weapons. You gotta work them all.

"When your not training, someone else is training to kick your asp"

Great quote Sigung, your are making me have flashbacks..... :-)

With Respect

Dean.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2004, 10:18:00 AM »
Deano, I still here people when I teach seminars and such say they will never go to the ground their defense is to good.  Denial is a serious problem in the arts and any field of sports and business as we know. Until you've been tackled from behind by 6 guys for no reason and was saved by your ground skills and stood up and chased them off, I think it would be hard to make a real conclusion to the effectiveness of the four ranges of fighting. That story is for another time....Peace Bro
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Dean Goldade

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2004, 12:12:00 PM »
Sad but true brother..

Sounds like I need to put some cold ones on ice for the story.. :-)

Miss ya bro.

Take care

Dean.
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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2004, 01:43:18 AM »
Its pretty much already been covered, but I'll chime in any ways. Theres nothing wrong with grappling, and moreso theres nothing wrong with learning it. I think the best saying I ever heard on the subject was this:

"You want to be a stand up fighter? thats great. Really effective on the street. But what happens when you get taken down and you dont know what the heck to do? You can fight, sure.. but how long will you last if they know what they're doing? The best method to stay OFF The ground is to know how to fight there"

You really have to go against a good grappler to understand 1) why its effective and 2) why its useful to learn. There is no "eye gouge groin slap bone break ankle bite" when they got you in a solid arm bar/ figure 4 choke. heck, its the choking you really got to watch out for.

I'm not a grappler. I'll never claim to be. I grapple when I can though, because its something that does happen. Heck, haven't you ever just sparred and accidentally fell? Do you realize how easy it is to get to the ground when the other guy is freaking out pushing grabbing and pulling from a clinch range? Adapt. Thats the way of kajukenbo. Too many people thing striking is the only way to work. Heck, I hear more trash talking from the strikers towards grapplers about whats more effective and what isn't. I think its just the extreme confidence and cockiness of the grapplers that causes the reaction from most traditional schools.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2004, 11:23:11 AM »
Very well said.....
GM John E Bono DC
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2004, 01:16:46 PM »
Before we get into grappling, first it helps to talk philosophy.

Just like Yang and Yin there are two schools of martial philosophy: Unilateral and Bilateral. Unilateral philosophy and principles have predominately been embraced in the Western cultures, whereas bilateral philosophy and principles have been developed mainly in the East.

What is the difference between unilateral and bilateral? Well, if we had an army of soldiers, the unilateral approach would be to place your strongest troops in the center and in front. You would then attack with more strength than the enemy. The bilateral approach, however, might be the equivalent of collapsing your center and as the attacker pushed forward, you would encircle them from the sides.

The bilateral approach has some obvious flaws. For it to work, first you must know the "personality" of the enemy and be able to correctly judge their intentions of attack. What if, for example, the enemy simply does not charge blindly into your collapsing center, but instead holds formation and attacks your weaker flanks? In fact the bilateral philosophy is somewhat of a mystery in the West, often seen as impractical and too indirect, and is often treated like some kind of mystical mumbo jumbo.

Much of Western martial arts simply stick with the unilateral principles. Western orthodox boxing commonly has the person step/shuffle in left and strike with right cross (rear hand). This moves you into the power of the opponent (their right side) but also away from their more deceptive lead jab and hook, and of course it brings your power (right cross) into play. Straight foward attack with power. The Eastern martial arts also employ unilateral principles against unilateral attack, such as kenpo will often teach to go right foot forward lead and attack over a boxer's left lead to counter the boxer's left shuffle in move.

However, unlike the West, much of the Eastern martial arts have the bilateral principles ingrained in them. They attempt to draw in the attack and after successfully reading the intentions of the attacker, they counter the move. But the question arises, have Eastern martial arts gone too far and in specializing so on bilateral principles and neglecting their own unilateral principles, have they lost effectiveness against the progressive and ever changing unilateral Western world?

Some would say yes. Aikido addresses quite a lot of unilateral attack, but it is focused on the "sword" being used to attack unilaterally. Not a lot of people carry around swords anymore. Judo was more of an answer, it seems that to be successful in bilateral principles, you have to have good unilateral principles to seriously threaten or unbalance the opponent. Judo has a lot of grabs, pulls and pushes to work the opponent until they commit to something that you can work your bilateral principles on. Of course the next step was introduced quite successfully by Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, the "shoot". The shoot is quite a unilateral attack, but it sets up the bilateral principles to follow.

Most of successful grappling follows bilateral principles. For instance, if you cut the breathing off of the opponent by applying sharp pressure, their first response is almost always to attempt to remove that pressure so they can breath. This leaves them momentarily open for the next technique, whether strike or grab. Almost like a game of combat chess.

So if a striker, following the principles of "KA" (Fire), to attack with overwhelming force and speed, is using a unilateral approach to fighting. The opponent can counter unilaterally or bilaterally. However, to be successful with the bilateral approach, like I said before, you must know the personality and intentions of the opponent.

Here is how things might unfold. If the striker had never really fought a grappler, AND the grappler had never really fought a striker, given all other things about equal, the striker will win because the striker does not need to know all that much to use a unilateral approach. The grappler, however, would not really know the personality of the striker, and so the grappler would have a very difficult time applying the principles of a bilateral approach against the striker.

However, this is not the case with skilled grapplers. Learning to strike is not all that complicated, at least to the levels that most get to that can handle themselves. Many skilled grapplers know enough about strikers to apply the bilateral approach. On the other hand, the striker would have a very difficult time knowing about the bilateral approach without having ever been taught it.

The photo posted by KajuJKDFighter illustrates part of the sequence for an armbar from the mount. If the person on the bottom was primarily a striker personality, the position is very tricky. The previous position to the photo is the mount (not shown) and from the mount the one on top punches the face and head of the guy on bottom. If and when they cover up like a boxer, the guy on top grabs a shoulder and flips the guy on bottom on his side if he can, at the same time kneeing him in the back of the head. The position shown in the picture is a variant of this as the guy on the bottom isn't on his side (can't tell from one picture how he got there). Anyway, so in the position in the picture, the guy on bottom might try to elbow the guy on top in the groin, well the guy on top knows this and applying the bilateral principles goes for the press choke with his left hand. That keeps the guy on bottom busy and when the guy on bottom tries the elbow in the groin to escape, the guy on top can trap the arm. In a sense the guy on bottom has just given the guy on top the gift of his arm, and then the armbar can come.

The moral of the story: If you are not a better grappler than the other guy, you need to know enough about the other guy to keep the other guy from successfully applying bilateral principles on you. This could mean you employ bilateral principles, but it also means you can apply unilateral principles in a manner NOT expected by the grappler. As long as you don't do something stupid, doing the unexpected can help you keep the initiative, thus as long as you have initiative you have a much better chance at defeating a better grappler than you if you are a much better striker. It is imperative, in ground fighting, if you use the unilateral approach, you need to be on top 99% of the time to keep the initiative.

In any case, it pays to know the enemy and NOT have expectations, keep "no mind" and just fight.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 01:26:43 PM by Wado »
W. Yamauchi
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2004, 02:20:06 PM »
The sequence was actually a mount to strikes, to a face press, then arm bar, which included an armbar, key lock and wrist lock. This guy did some Thai boxing and I think he said he was 6'10", nice guy to volunteer, I'm the one on top.  I'll try to add more of the pics...Sigung Bono
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2004, 02:20:23 PM »
The sequence was actually a mount to strikes, to a face press, then arm bar, which included an armbar, key lock and wrist lock. This guy did some Thai boxing and I think he said he was 6'10", nice guy to volunteer, I'm the one on top.  I'll try to add more of the pics...Sigung Bono
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2004, 02:20:47 PM »
pic
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2004, 02:21:01 PM »
pic
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision