Author Topic: Handling a Grappler  (Read 26442 times)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2004, 03:54:44 PM »
I agree be diverse and know when to control rather then injure...  bye the way 15 years of boxing...Love it...
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2004, 06:22:52 PM »
I'm going to throw something out there just to see where it goes. I think we have a great forum for discussing fighting skills and what we need to be successful.

I have been a police officer in Oakland since the late 80s. I have worked a few different assignments over the years. Right now I'm working in the Training Division-nice and safe. For ten years though, I worked as a patrol officer.

During that time (6 years on the overnight shift, 3 on swing shift and 1 year on days), I got into a lot of poop. Oakland is a dangerous city. Many of the people I dealt with were on parole and afraid of the three-strikes rule.

That meant when I tried to stop them many would fight like a caged animal. Because if I caught them with their guns or dope they knew they were on their way to the big house for 25 years. That's the way the law works for these guys. If they got away they could still have their freedom.

Almost everyone I stopped, especially at night, was either selling drugs, buying drugs, or working as an enforcer for one of the gazillion drug dealers out there.

Needless to say, once I got out of my car, it was on. Now stay with me because I want to try and make a point. I worked five shifts a week. I'd say I easily got into one good beef per shift. Sometime several, but we'll just say once per shift.  I worked about 48 weeks per year when you take off vacation, so that works out to about 240 encounters in a year. That sounds like a lot, so let's just say 150 a year. During a ten years period that would average to about 1,500 street encounters.

I only know Kajukenbo. Our grappling consists taking you to the ground after we hit you or kick you, then we beat you. All my physical encounters were ended by striking the person or kicking them, then taking them to the ground and beating them. On a few occasion I did use the carotid choke out.

I have no training in ground grappling and looking back I can't remember a time where I felt like I was in a position where I needed to have those skills. However, maybe I didn't use them because I had never received the training. You can't use what you don't know.

Now, I'm not trying to sound like some tough guy. I'm just a regular Joe. I'm putting this out there as an example of my street experiences and letting others see what worked for me. Strike them, pull or push them down, beat them.

Do others have similar experiences where they have used their skills? What can you tell us about your street experiences? How did you fight-standing up, going to the ground, etc.

Please don't tell us whay you did in the dojo or a tournament. No disrespect but no one in the dojo or tournament is trying to kill you. Let's keep it about street experiences. Also, don't make poop up. We are all trying to learn for this not make ourselves into superman.
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Offline Wado

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2004, 07:42:33 PM »
Geeze, one time I was just walking down the street and some punk lunged out at me out of completely nowhere and I had no idea what that was about. His hand was slightly extended by his side as if ready to grab or punch, anyway I instinctively placed my arm on top of his rising arm, using a heavy hand technique and centering concepts of Aikido, I pinned his arm in such a way that he could not move it. I exerted no effort what so ever, blending like water to his force. His entire momentum stopped, I was ready to take him out right there if he made just one more ounce of pressure towards me. He did not, his face went totally to surprise, he froze up, and his strength went away. I kept walking. I looked back a little later, I could see him with an angry look on his face and his two buddies with him. He looked like he might have been looking for me, to actually fight, but he had not spotted me. I kept walking.

A very strange street encounter. There was no build up, no time for me to get scared, just someone lunging out from nowhere. I did not think for an instance about what I was going to do next, certainly not grab the guy. Last thing I wanted was for him to get a hold of my clothes and then have his two buddies come and get me while I'm bound up. I was ready to strike back, a nice palm strike to the side of his jawline and what ever was to follow or maybe something else, all I know is my instinct was to strike hard and fast and with much violence.

But, say I had seen the guy long before the lunge and been afraid. My adrenaline may have taken over and I my body may have started to react, to freeze up. I may not have been calm enough to apply a heavy hand technique with the relaxation and center necessary to do so. I may have lost the initiative.

I believe that if you lose the initiative and cannot gain it back through striking, you will be on the losing end of the exchange. When you are on the losing end of any exchange, whether you get knocked down or taken down, there is a much greater chance you will be on the ground and have to fight your way from there.

I think the benefit of grappling of JU/AIKI, bilateral principles is to save your butt if you end up on the losing end of the deal. If you aren't beating them with strength, so you have to beat them with technique. Much harder for most of us to win using technique when we put so much rightfully in the value of force and strength.

Well, that's just my humble opinion.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2004, 08:06:56 PM »
Though not nearly as many as you. I've been in my share from being a bouncer at bars, keg parties and also from my group of friends at one time, that I needed to "help" out. I've done the one on one, two, three, six and nine on one and also, a few worse, like a 26 on three (and by the way a steel toe boot is not that great for the teeth).  Now that I think about it when the chips were down it was mostly all stand up skills I used, occasionally some ground when needed, but back in the day I only knew some wrestling and some small circle jujitsu, other then the boxing and karate.  Really it was mostly the boxing and the balance enough to stay up for the most part that keep me on the winning side and out of, well to many stitches. Of course that was what I was best at, at the time also.
Boy, I say you and I, (Prof Mitch) better stay out of fights...of course who would want to fight such nice guys.......Peace
« Last Edit: September 29, 2004, 08:15:12 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2004, 08:56:09 PM »
Guys I know that work the jails tell me they get in stand up grappling. Your probably an expert at it and don't even know it.  
GM John E Bono DC
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2004, 10:14:38 PM »
Guys, let me try this angle. I am trying to see how ground grappling became so popular and where it fits in with fighting.

I was not trying to brag by indentifying the many encounters I've had. I did that to try and lead up to making a few points, even if it made me sound like some knucklehead.

I have been very successful in the street with my limited fighting skills. Kajukenbo is a very basic fighting system, at least as far as the original method that was taught to me. There are complexed methods of Kajukenbo out there, but I was just taught the basic original method.

So my first point is I have limited fighting skills and my Kajukenbo is a basic fighting method, nothing fancy.

OK, let me move forward. I am in no way in Sigung Bono's league as a fighter. I can say this by watching him teach and train over the past few years and knowing my own ability. I do not possess any of the boxing skills or the grappling skills that he has. Yet, I have been effective in the street.

I believe the reason I have been effective is that most people out in the street who we fear like drug dealers, muggers, etc. have little to no real fighting skills. They may look tough and have been in a some fights because of being in the street, but they have not been "trained" to fight.

They can throw a punch, grab you, push you, and maybe kick at you, but because of their lack of training, someone like me is able to defeat them.

Point two-Because the average street thug is not trained to fight, someone like me with basic fighting skills can be effective.

Now, let's talk about how grappling got into the picture. I believe once "trained" fighters began to fight each other they realized they needed every tool in the box. It was not enough to have karate skills or just boxing skills. You needed to have the whole package. You have to be able to fight on the ground, standing up, every position because the person fighting you has those skills too.

With cross-training the in thing, grappling became the thing to learn, primarily because it was the one thing most of us never practised.

While I believe it's always great to learn more about the fighting arts, I don't believe grappling is that necessary to be effective in the street because we don't fight "trained" fighters in the street. Most of us with a few strikes or kicks and an armbar can take care of the average street punk.

Point three-most people we face are not trained fighters so we can be successful with basic martial arts training.

Now, I do train hard so you have to throw that in. You can't pretend when you train. You have to go full force with your training to have the right amount of accuracy, power and speed to be effective.

You also have to have a mind set that will not let you quit. Cops are taught this so we won't give up, even when shot or stabbed.

So for my last point-train hard and never quit.

Let me end by saying for those of you like Sigung Bono, Sifu Jeff Macalolooy, and others who have acumulated skills in all areas, keep teaching! I do believe in time as the arts evolve, grappling will be as common place as boxing.

Comments please!!!



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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2004, 12:54:03 AM »
Prof. Powell,
   That was an awesome note you wrote.  I always train for the worse.  Sort of like being a  bit paranoid.  I liken it to going on vacation and bringing some extra money...just in case I need it, though I rarely do.  I have ended up on the ground before, tackled from behind by six young military guys  just looking for action I guess.  Though I had a large blade with me the grappling kept me from being nervous enough to pull it.  I actually was winning the fight from the ground while they all stood and then I had my chance to stand and engage and they ran.  That's one of  times I used it.  Used it against a guy that just would fall from strikes (darn hard head) and took him down and finished it quick with a hold.  There are many instances I could see to use it, but the reality of it is it depends who you fight.  I just hope if I ever get in a fight again, and I hope not, or next to me Prof Powell.  The experience factor always helps.....Like I alway say "Age and deceit will always win over youth and skill"
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 12:55:51 AM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline John Bishop

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2004, 03:01:03 AM »
I guess most of us that have been street cops have similar experiences and opinions as Prof. Powell.
Having retired last month after 32 years in law enforcement, I can agree about 100% with what Prof. Powell wrote.  
Being a cop gives one very practical experience.  You get involved in all types of physical altercations.  Armed, unarmed, multiple opponants, single opponants.  You witness fights, and you see the aftermath of fights.  You learn what works and what dosen't.  Much more then fighting experience, you get survival experience so you can make it to retirement.  
When a cop fights, he cannot lose, no matter what.  If you can't fight any longer, the possibility of losing your gun and getting killed is very good.  
A lot of us realize that working a year on the streets of a city like Oakland is probably equilivent to working 4-5 years in most American cities.  So when I speak of my experience with physical altercations, it's probably 20-30% of Prof. Powell's.  When he talks about getting into at least 1 altercation a shift, I can believe it, because I probably averaged about 1-2 altercations a week.  That's working 2 years in the jail as a Police Cadet, 7 years in patrol as a police officer, and 1 year as a investigator working a warrant/fugitive detail.  The rest of my time was in investigative assignments where altercations were somewhat rare.
Like Prof. Powell said, most police fights don't go to the ground unless the suspect is already locked up.  Police officers don't want to grapple.  It's too easy to lose your gun if you grappling.  You can put your holds on the suspect, but he dosen't care, because when your hands are going for a hold, his hands are going for your gun.  
Most people that will attack you are anti social types who don't have the dedication and discipline required to reach a high level of fighting skill.  Of course there are exceptions to every rule.  In one of the cities I worked in, we had a local kung fu school owner who was very skilled, and started fights quite often.  But he always got his a--  kicked because he never picked fights unless he was drunk.        

My suggestions for surviving a attack are:
1.  Attitude is the most important; Train like your life depends on it.  Have a "never give up" attitude.  Accept the fact that you will get hit or cut.  And don't let it shake you up.  Nothing is "overkill" when your life is on the line, so be mentally prepared to do whatever it takes to come out on top.

2.  Get all the training you can, but remember it's better to be good in one aspect of fighting, then just average in many aspects of fighting.

3.  Stay in shape.  Just being able to outlast your opponant by 15-30 seconds can mean survival.  Remember, a lot of the anti social types that will attack you are not at the gym everyday.  Their usually out capering or getting loaded.  But if they're loaded, they may be able to take a lot of punishment.  So being in shape is a must.      
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2004, 09:22:45 AM »
Let's talk about street experience and how it shapes your fighting mind. Sigung Bono, Sigung Bishop, and others, how much has experience shaped you thinking about fighting?

Here are some of the things that I know I learned:
1. The dojo is a sterile environment where everything works. The street is very dangerous and most of what you know will never be used.
2. People who fight you on the street don't care what rank you are.
3. Getting punched or kicked in the dojo or a tournament hurts, but not like being punched or kicked at full speed in the street with no pads on.
4. Fighting in a tournament does not make you a street fighter. Fighting in the dojo does not make you a street fighter. Fighting in the street makes you a street fighter.
5. Every strike in the street hurts. A kick that misses the groin and strikes the hip, a punch that misses the face and strikes the shoulder all hurt.
6. The mat is soft and doesn't hurt you when you fall on it. You are even taught to slap the mat when you fall to reduce the speed of the fall. On the street when your body hits the ground it hurts. If you slap the cement with your hand you will hurt your hand.
7. All techniques work at medium speed. Some techniques work at 3/4 speed. Very few techniques work at full speed.
8. There are such things as a one hit knock out.
9. The person you train with in the dojo goes with the pain. The person you fight in the streets goes away from the pain.
10. Big guys fall down just like little guys.
11. Pain compliance techniques DO NOT work against people under the influence of crack cocaine.
12. Armbars and wrist locks work because you bend a joint NOT because they cause pain.
13. Most people who carry a knife do not know how to use it.
14. Accurucy is more important than speed or power. Where you strike counts the most.
15. Accuracy is the first thing to go under stress. Better hope you have some speed or power!
16. If you are out of shape, you will run out of gas before a fight begins because adrenalin will take your breath away.
17. If you skill level in the dojo is say a 7 or 8 on a scale of 1-10, making you a pretty good martial artist, you can cut that to a 3 or 4 on a scale of 1-10 on the street because other factors come into play like adrenalin, wet surfaces, the wrong shoes, you wore glasses that day instead of contacts, etc.
18. Open hand strike are better than punches (don't break your hand)
19. Low kicks are better than high kicks
20. Listen to your mom and don't fight in the street!
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2004, 11:43:14 AM »
Great comments by Sigung Bishop and Prof Powell, From what I've seen many of my observations are the same even though I was never in law enforcement.

1. Don't be shocked by being hit, if it's the first time you got slugged in the face there is a good chance that will be the end of the fight for you.  Train with more intensity and contact as you become more experienced. You should just below the level of injury.  Use the best equipment so you can go full out, pro boxing gear, FIST suits etc. Since you can't take hits everyday and still train hard some days use the equipment some days not.  If you train like your on the street the street fight will be less of a shock. (and hurt less)

2. Anyone who thinks they won't get hit is living in a fantasy world.  Techniques that were not practiced full speed against someone who you didn't know was going to throw it are likely not to work.  Lack of timing is key in a fight. If you train for sprints by running slow long distance runs, you won't have that fast twitch muscle trained to work for you.

3. Fighting a drunk, a drugged person and a street fighter are different fights.  Of course if your drug etc...that cuts down your fighting ability exponentially.  Let's assume your not. A drunks timing and balance will be off most likely.
  A person on drugs may not go down from a strike or just keep getting back up. Sometimes you have to take away their visual stimuli and cover their head with whatever you have, or the old hockey player move were you pull their shirt over their head.  If that doesn't stop them at least you get a few free shots.
   A street or trained fighter will be relax and possibly unfazed by your strikes, but remember cheating is good, we're not Kaju just for fun.  Well of course if you run, just how far do you think they'll chase you...practice your cardio...just in case.  I like this quote;
"It makes me mad when people say I turned and ran like a scared rabbit. Maybe it was like an angry rabbit, who was going to fight in another fight, away from the first fight."
  --  Jack Handey

4. Like was already said and most people don't know, adrenaline will suck your energy down to 5%. If you have been in that situation before or feel unthreatened, you have less of a chance of it kicking in.  You have to train to relax and train it hard. I just think everything happens for a reason and if I'm in that situation, I was meant to be there for some reason. Of course this is a topic for another day....
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 11:47:37 AM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2004, 12:11:21 PM »
Quote
Guys, let me try this angle. I am trying to see how ground grappling became so popular and where it fits in with fighting.

Ground grappling is just a dimension of combat, just as stand up, clinch, ranged... all dimensions exist at the same time and combat can move from one to any other dimension and back.

How did the "ground" dimension become so popular? First understanding that ground grappling is an evolution of combat based on the rules. I have read that long ago in Japan and probably just as likely other places too, that a duel often lead to the death of one or both combatants. A warrior needed to have peace at home before the fight, to say his goodbyes, because it was likely he would not return.

For various reasons, including safety, many of the percussion (strikes and kicks) and lethal techniques were taken out of combat for use more as training and sport. Such was possibly the evolution of Sumo (wrestling). In fact once the fate of a whole kingdom was determined between a wrestling match between the two sons of the king.

This was not street fighting, but organized fighting by a set of common rules, for sport and contest. Something for the nobility to watch and participate in.

Given those rules of combat, grappling evolved the way it has with a focus on ground. As I said, this is not street fighting but the evolution of combat based on a set of common rules.

Where does this fit in the over all combat ability of someone? It only works well if they can make that transition between what works well in the ground dimension and apply that to other dimensions of combat.

For example, I have wrestled in small rooms filled with furniture to see what it was like. Many of the techniques learned in the dojo on the nice flat open ground did not work well at all in the environment of a small room. I could not get an armbar on someone bigger than me in the room because he braced against one wall and a bed. My technique was not good enough to get the correct position as I was effectively working against the person AND the wall AND the bed, connected like one giant beast.

What would work were throws into furniture, slamming their head into things, as best I could tell, but most of the finer points of position and ground technique were lost.

I had to re-evaluate what was going on. It turns out that the concepts of JU (suppleness) is vastly complex, more so than anyone has ever completely mastered. Not only do you have to blend with your opponent, but you have to blend with the environment too.

If all your blending is in the environment of a dojo, you have to figure out how to transition into blending into other environments for JU to work.

What I found was that not the exact techniques from ground, but the concepts from ground grappling help me in combat, if and only if, I can transition them into standup combat, including the clinch, up against a wall, and with objects around.

Ground combat is just a stepping stone to much more complex understanding of JU. Once you get really good on the ground, you should be able to take those concepts and modify techniques to apply them to standup against a wall and in a crowded room.

This, to me is where the ground grappling fits in to combat. It is a transition to help get better at stand-up fighting by taking what works on the ground, learning from it, and applying it to stand up and other environments.

To be supple in all environments, to blend with all environments and opponents, that is JU.

Let's talk about street experience and how it shapes your fighting mind. Sigung Bono, Sigung Bishop, and others, how much has experience shaped you thinking about fighting?

I think the biggest wake up call for me was once at a party a friend of a friend had a little too much to drink, we ended up in a play fight, neither one of us really wanting to hurt the other. But the guy did not stop. The fight continued and I realized that on one side there was a glass table, the other side a lamp on a stand, there really was no place to take the fight and keeping it there was not really an option.

I could not take the guy down without hurting him and most likely causing property damage. So I pulled the guy right to the ground and sort of clinched him there so he could not hurt me, until help came and broke up the fight.

The wake up call was that some people will not stop, they don't tap out, they don't have the presence of mind to save themselves, they just keep going. Don't count on anything saving you short of pinning the guy to the ground (immobilizing them), knocking them out, or running away (escaping). You cannot count on the other person giving up, even after breaking their arm, etc.

I started to read up on some of the bujitsu stuff and it turns out that part of that training evolved into the sort of kamikazi attitude to killing the other and not planning on returning after the fight.

This was effectively a way for a lesser warrior to take out a greater warrior at the cost of both their lives.

So in the streets, it is very possible that if you are attacked violently, that you will be attacked by someone with little or no regard to their own personal safety, like a caged animal, they only see you as the obstacle to get to what they want. A knife wielding assailant in this mind set will come at you and you can punch them, you can shoot them, but if you can't control and/or stop them, they will not give up, they will violently cut and stab you down. They may die from the encounter, but they don't care, they will not stop as long as it is physically possible for them to continue and you are seen as an obstacle between them and what they desire.

So how I changed was that not only do I train in safer methods of combat, but I also am mindful and train for the case of the kamikazi, the guy or guys that will not stop, no matter what, so long as it is physically possible for them to continue.

Not something I learned from years on the streets, but still a valuable lesson for me.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2004, 02:13:43 PM »
Ground grappling became popular after the original UFC's where grapplers with very limited striking abilities dominated over and over.  This was primarily because the strikers had absolutely no ground experience at that time.
I taken guys down in fights and controlled them, use a submission with a joint lock or choke till they quit.  Also have used it so I could control the situation and not get hit.  Anyone can throw a roundhouse punch from standing, only skilled fighters from my experience are good strikers while on the ground.  I trained professional kickboxers from Holland who were terrors with the stand up game and feeble once I took them down.  I've let them hit me to the body with all their power and they found they had no power, since the position of the hand and leverage for a strike while on the ground is night and day.  If I fought a huge pro K1 style stand up fighter believe me I would take them down the second I had a chance, or hit them with a brick...whatever seemed easier.  I'm a firm believer in use the easiest technique and save my energy...
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 02:33:44 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline sifu_adam

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2004, 04:03:43 PM »
Quote from: Mitch Powell on Today at 09:22:45am
Let's talk about street experience and how it shapes your fighting mind. Sigung Bono, Sigung Bishop, and others, how much has experience shaped you thinking about fighting?
 
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Since I am not in law enforcement my street fighting experiences were not so well thought out as a younger man and I have never had the bonus of Badge Authority and a gun as my back up.  As I have grown as an instructor and student of the martial arts I realize even in recent times that defending myself has just about landed me in jail, using my skills as a martial artist must be a last resort and even in using those skills I must be able to make smart choices, to eye gouge or hurt someone for life could cost me my school, and hurt not just me for now but for years to come.
5th Degree Kajukenbo and Kodokan Judo,  also teaching Kickboxing and Royce Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2004, 05:50:15 PM »
It's hard to add to all the great information being given here by Prof. Powell, Sigung Bono, and Sifu Wade.  You can see that a lot of us have had some of the same experiences.  Life experiences are always the best learning tools on what works and what dosen't.

I would like to expand on what I personally learned from real fighting.  
My first training was about 4 years of judo when I was a kid.   This was great growing up in the 60's when there was a sense of fair play in school yard fights.  No one ever thought of kicking, or picking up a stick to fight with.  So normally I would throw someone down hard a couple times and the fight would be over.  In high school I supplemented the judo with about 3 years of freestyle wrestling.  
So when I started working the jail as a 19 year old police cadet, I was basically a grappler.  
Like Sifu Wade said, you can't grapple everywhere.  And normally you don't want to go down on a concrete floor, or asphalt parking lot.  So you adapt.  (Very important thing for all martial artists)  Most cops learn to grapple vertically.  Which means instead of pinning someone to the ground (which is OK when you have help), you pin them to a wall, or a car, or a table, or tree, etc.

When I started in the police academy in 1974, my defensive tactics instructor was Bob Koga.  He at the time, and still is regarded as one of the top police trainers in the world.  He has black belts in judo, jujitsu, and aikido.  He taught us a aikido sub-system which became known as "Koga Jutsu".   He was a student of Koichi Tohei, and was given permission to develop this sub-system for police use.  When you went to the academy before the 80s, you were not paid any overtime.  You were expected to be there from 6am to 6pm.  Even though classes were from 8pm-5pm, you were expected to use the extra time before and after, and any breaks to train on your defensive tactics and running.      
So five days a week you spent about 4-5 hours training.  Our PT and officer survival instructor was Capt. Bob Smitson.  He was the man who started the LAPD swat team.  He was also a student of Tak Kobota.  Besides running, his main workout for us was kicking.  Three simple kicks on the heavy bag.  Front kicks, side kicks, and back kicks, no higher then the waist.    
So when I started as a police officer, I had a background in judo, wrestling, Koga-Jutsu, and some kicks.   First thing I learned. If your not really, really good at jujitsu or aikido, wrist locks are almost impossible to apply to a fighting or resisting person.    And pain compliance dosen't work on someone who isn't feeling any pain.  So you end up developing a Kajukenbo attitude.  You soften someone up with strikes and kicks before you try to apply locks and holds. I really wish I had started training in Kajukenbo before I did in 1984.  It is such a complete art, with a realistic philosophy to fighting and adaptation.  

No matter what anyone tells you, Kajukenbo does have it all.  You just have to search it out with instructors who know more about certain aspects of Kajukenbo.  Face it, if you get better at jujitsu, or judo, or kung fu, or western boxing, or karate, or escrima,  your still doing Kajukenbo.   No one in Kajukenbo limits their teaching to just the belt requirements.    

Some things you learn from real fights.
1. You can't manuever a lot in a hallway or closet.  So you learn to use close range weapons like elbows, uppercuts, and knees.
2. You never want to go down to the ground unless you have others helping you.  If you pin someone to a vertical object and stay on your feet, you can always back off into a striking or kicking range if your losing control of your hold.  
3.  No one, drunk, intoxicated, loaded, adrenal charged, etc can continue fighting without oxygen.  Learn choke holds.  If you learn to apply a carotid type choke properly, you can put someone out in 15-30 seconds.  This is from cutting off the bloodflow to the brain.  If you can only apply a choke on the windpipe, it could take 1-2 minutes to render someone unconscious.    
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2004, 05:51:49 PM »
Adam,
I hear what you are saying, but I'd rather not take this post in that direction. None of us are talking about going out and hurting someone on purpose. We all know better than that. I'm all about turning the other cheek, but this post isn't about that.

As far as the gun as a back up. The funny thing is, most of the time it actually gets in the way. I'm trying to strike or control and they are trying to grab the gun from my holster.

Also, we often have the gun out on burglary type offenses, then have to put it away while fighting the guy because they know you can't shoot them when they are unarmed. Now you're fighting with one hand while trying to holster a weapon. It's actualy very hard to do.

You can talk with any of the people I work with or the people I lumped up and took to jail. I did only what I had to do and no more. I don't get off on being a bully. I just happen to work in and area with a lot of drugs, which means high crime.

Oakland has the highest population of parolees in California per capita. That means most of the people we stop have a reason to fight their way out.

The direction I was going was this:
First, I wanted those with real life street fighting experiences to provide some situations they have survived.
Second, I wanted people to talk about how those situations have modified or changed they way they train.
Third, I was trying to see if anyone has used GJJ, BJJ and such as their means of defense in a real street fight.
Forth, I wanted to see if others believe BJJ or GJJ is a product of UFC style training and something that is going to stay and grow or disappear.

I'm looking for experiences that we can all share and learn from. I'm was one of those kids that touched the wall that said, "Wet Paint" just to see if it was wet. I'm still that way. "Does this technique work? I don't know let's put on the fist suit and try it!"

It sounds like you got offended and that was not my goal. Although you did seem like you were going to talk about some of your street experiences, but then went the other direction.

I don't mean to offend martial artists. I'm looking for people with fighting experience in the street. Not everyone has that. It's OK if you don't. For those that do, let's look at how you have learned from this.

All of us must be honest about our abilities. Experience plays a great role in learning. If a person has never fought in the street, that's OK. However, for the ones that have talking about those situations let's others learn from them.

The fact is, most martial artists have never had a real fight since grade school-and again, that's OK. In general, most martial artists will never get into a fight in their whole life. I'm sure there are many people on this post who can say, "I have never had a street fight as an adult."

That's not a bad thing. It would be great to be able to say that, but I can't. Just Like Sigung Bono, Bishop and others, we have worked in an environment where saying that is impossible.

If I'm trying to make a point at all it's this. Sparring on a mat or in a tournament is not the same thing as fighting in the street. That doesn't mean a person with only those skills can beat me down. As I said before, I have a very basic fighting style with limited knowledge.

Those who have aquired all their skills on the mat need to know things will be different. The fighters on the street are usually not trained, so the punches and kicks won't be anything like those from a trained fighter. There will be a lot of pushing and pulling, and probably a friend or brother helping the person fight you.

Those who have worked in law enforcement, jails, as a bouncer will confirm what I'm saying.

So, let's try to continue in the direction we were going because I think we were getting somewhere. Adam, again, I was not trying to offend if you took anything I said that way.

I'm looking for street experiences-even specific ones, and what was learned.

I have some really good ones, but others first please.

Mitch
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 05:53:59 PM by Mitch Powell »
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