Author Topic: Handling a Grappler  (Read 26446 times)

Offline sifu_adam

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2004, 12:50:29 AM »
Mitch,
No offense taken, just wanted to restate the point I made earlier

"we must also realize all the legal issues that can arise from using our skills. Keeping in mind that some situations may not be right for you to eye gouge and rip people to shreds, but they might be a situation that requires you to restrain and control an individual."

This is a major item I have learned from my street fights. I was one time approached outside a gas station by an individual that was drunk. He knew I was a martial arts guy and struck up a "friendly conversation". It was not long into the conversation that he stated something about my kicks than said he would like to how tough I really was outside of a dojo. I did my best to avoid a physical conflict, but he would hear known of that and took a swing at me, I was able to handle this drunk (very easly) and left him on the ground. I and it could just be my open did not punish this guy all that bad, I gave a him a couple of shots, one major shot to the shoulder defending his initial strike. The guy had a shiner and a busted lip, but it was a minor ground and pound. I waited around for the cops and such to show up, only to find they were talking about me using extreme force and one even had the nerve to say I probably provoked the drunk to make a move so I could show off! I was fortunate that one officer that showed up on the scene knew me (he trained at another school in town) I explained things to him and after a bit they let the guy go and sent me on my way. I later got calls and lots more from this guy about the 'damage' I did and the money I owed him for medical bills and loss of work. The situation was pretty much just him blowing off steam for getting set on his rear, but it did make me even more aware of how in that situation to have just took him down and controlled him may have saved me from the "extreme force" and suit issues that arise.

Mitch, I value your words and take no offense to your post, I have always enjoyed any seminars you are a part of I honor the times (a few short ones) that you have taken me to the side to a show a few extras or things I missed in the seminars.
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Offline dshioi

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2004, 01:58:04 AM »
In my younger days, I did get into quite a few street fights and very few of them ended up on the ground.  I also witnessed many street fights and again most of them ended up with only one guy on the ground so my question is where does the statistics of over 80% of fights end up on the ground come from?  ??? Nothing against Brazilian Jujitsu because I am a practitioner and I love it.  just wondering where the percentage came from. ???

Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2004, 02:12:41 AM »
so my question is where does the statistics of over 80% of fights end up on the ground come from?  ??? ???
From a Guy who practices BJJ and ends up on the ground 80% of the time.
   I have been in my share of street fights as well and I am glad to say only one when went to the ground. The rest of the time it was toe to toe.
   I remeber one humorous situation though. I got into a fight at a party, beat the guy up, next thing I know I have five of his buddys jump me from behind. As they were attempting to beat the crap out of me, I wormed my way out of the pile and stood back and watched them beat on each other till they realized I was not under them. The funny part was, when they got up they looked at me and asked where did the guy go that they were after. I smiled and told them "I think he left"
So out the door they went.
 Life is a cartoon I tell you.
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Offline dshioi

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2004, 02:26:52 AM »
Sifu Sin Bin,

Your experience of being taken to the ground only once is similar to what I have witnessed in sreet fights so my question is again "Where did the percentage that is always quoted (80%) come from? ???

with respect,
Dan



Offline John Bishop

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2004, 02:56:45 AM »
Probably the Gracie family publicist.  He may be the same publicist who told everyone that Jean Claude Van Dam was a world champion kick boxer, or Steven Seagal worked for the CIA.
Let's face it, there have been no legitimate controlled studies or polls taken concerning the percentage of fights that go to the ground.    
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2004, 08:41:14 AM »
That stat for ended up on the ground was always stated as being a statistic from a LA police survey, much as the most common punch that kills someone is a right roundhouse.  I heard it in LA at the Inosanto academy when training down there and there were police training there, but I never saw a report. With myself more often then not I'm up unless I wanted to be down.  I have seen my share of street fights with unskilled what I call "cowboy" fighters and there are a few swings and then a hook up and fall and then not much fighting after that, just rolling around. There are videos out there you can buy and rent with street fights and on the net and you'll see a great many end up on the ground, though not many when one of the guys has some level of skill.... I like that story about the guys not knowing who they're fighting...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 08:42:42 AM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2004, 09:48:10 AM »
I guess I wasn't very clear when I answered the question on the 80 percent stat.  If you read the first line of my last post, I said the stat comes from a BJJ guy who's own experience landed him up on the ground 80% of the time. My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek as I wrote it ;)
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2004, 11:59:52 AM »
Actually it was an actual stat from the  LAPD from many years ago.  Much like which is more effective a knife or a holstered pistol under 26 feet, answer would be the knife I have the LAPD video that shows the study.  I got your joke the first time...Peace
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 12:03:15 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2004, 12:30:07 PM »
Sifu Adam,
    I believe there are levels of fighting, and the better you are at fighting the more restraint you can give, and often that confidence in your own skills shows and the attacker decides not to fight with you and walks away. In the wild it's a rare animal that attacks a lion or a wolverine, because these animals do not project fear and who wants to fight with someone or thing that has no fear.  I find it helpful to always give an easy out for the person.
    Here's an example as per Prof Powell's request.  I was at Friday's with Esther, who many of you guys know and her three sisters.  I leave the table to go up to the bar, when I come back 5 guys have converged o the table and are being rude. The girls are asking them to leave.  I asked them to leave as the gals have requested, apparently that offended their manhoods.  One guy stepped up to me ad I moved him back gently, then a bigger guy came up and attempted to picka fight.  I told him he was rude and let not make a scene and go to the bathroom like men and talk or the fight would be starting right  now and he would be first in it.  He chose the bathroom once in I told him his option was to fight now and he probably wouldn't be leaving the bathroom for a while, or act like we made up and go back out apoligize to the gals and buy me a beer.  I go the free beer and it turns out the first guy had saw my Kajukenbo coat, and realize I was a martial artist and had back off because of that.  It worked out ok, no one hurt.,,,well and a free beer.


Now to comment on these 4 questions from Prof Powell

The direction I was going was this:
First, I wanted those with real life street fighting experiences to provide some situations they have survived.
Second, I wanted people to talk about how those situations have modified or changed they way they train.
Third, I was trying to see if anyone has used GJJ, BJJ and such as their means of defense in a real street fight.
Forth, I wanted to see if others believe BJJ or GJJ is a product of UFC style training and something that is going to stay and grow or disappear.


1. One example, a fight with three guys, they were starting trouble, and I was in a bad mood.  I hit the first one hard and fast, he was finished with the fight, not knocked out but down and not getting up.  I pushed the second one down the other dove for my legs and I ended up having to take him down with a old school head lock.  While hitting him the one I pushed got up and came to help,  I spun and  wrapped guard on him, and just held him for a few more seconds till I was done with the guy in the head lock. I sweeped him over for a mount and finished the fight.  I walked away unhurt but thinking to myself, "What am I a lunatic, I could have got killed there", but I didn't luckily and luckily it was on grass.
2.  Since the day I grappled Rickson Gracie back in the mid 90's I realized there are some extremely skilled ground fighters and I don't want to be on the bottom side of one of these guys without knowing what to do.  It's fun anyway and gives you a great anaerobic workout as oppose to the aerobic workout from standup sparring.  Also the likelihood of injury is less with daily sparring as opposed to kickboxing for instance.  It also give you a good feel for how an opponent moves, like sticky hands with your entire body.
3.  Rear naked choke, which if done correctly and I know Prof Powell and I have discussed this. You can put a guy out in under 6 seconds and many times 2.  Those who have seen me teach this know this to be true.  Any Kaju guy/girl that wants to learn this, grab me the next time you see me and I will show you. Also positioning, and some arms bars from a kneeling type position, also the dreaded cobra.  I'll have to think if any other moves have been used.
4. I believe it is here to stay and will only advance.  The techniques I taught 10 yrs ago, are modified for all the counters used now.  I changed stuff every year as needed or when I see a flaw. I think the straight BBJ guys will eventually all realize their mistake of not learning to strike, and we'll be way ahead of the game.



« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 12:33:47 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline Wado

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2004, 01:40:57 PM »
The direction I was going was this:
First, I wanted those with real life street fighting experiences to provide some situations they have survived.
I'll play devils avocate here. Only around 3% of the population can be considered a trained fighter, and skill sets and abilities vary greatly. The mother of my son I met in karate many, many years ago. She started karate because she felt she needed to learn something to defend herself. She had just before that been walking down the street and some guy on the street grabbed her and started to come on to her. She gave the guy a good elbow and he went down. Mostly his ego was damaged as he got right back up, but the point is he left her alone because she was not the easy target (victim) he thought she was. She had no martial training when the incident happened except a year or so of Judo when she was a teenager.

The outcome of many, many non-life threatening fights are decided in the first few blows. However, the longer the fight goes, the more chance there is that the fight will end up on the ground. Throw out all the fights that lasted less than 30 seconds, how many of the remaining fights ended up on the ground? But I digress...

What about the experiences of women, trained or untrained, they seem to be much more at risk of an assailant grabbing them and forcing them to the ground or into a car or something like that? If their initial blows don't work to stop the assailant, what will help them?

Second, I wanted people to talk about how those situations have modified or changed they way they train.
From the untrained point of view, it seems that having someone violate personal space is a great way to get new recruits to join martial arts.

From the trained point of view, it seems like everything is some wake up call where we constantly re-evaluate ourselves and our martial arts. In the end, it usually ends up that experience is the most valuable thing to have, whether to help you in a fight or give you the awareness to avoid a bad situation.

To be fair, ground combat is mostly about experience, you go at it against a non-compliant opponent. Because of the risk of injury, much of the more lethal and effective standup fighting is trained with a compliant partner, hardly the same as trying to punch a three hundred pound psycho high on cocaine in the throat.

Ground combat gives a means to help people gain experience in a safer manner against resisting opponents. You can always go more, no-holds-barred, pressure testing, milling, animal day, full contact, etc., but for most the ground fighting is very useful in gaining experience against a resisting opponent that they cannot get with half-speed techniques and non-contact and compliant partner training.

To each his/her own.

Third, I was trying to see if anyone has used GJJ, BJJ and such as their means of defense in a real street fight.
Again, to be fair, GJJ and BJJ seldom if ever claimed to be for self-defense. They do have self-defense stuff, but it is all stand up or against a wall. The ground stuff they do not claim is self-defense.

Kajukenbo often claims to be for self-defense, and it has proven effective in the streets for years. To introduce ground combat into Kajukenbo training is fine, but like performance of kata and basic karate style blocks and punches, it should not be advertised as self-defense. Kajukenbo as a whole is self-defense, but many of the training methods used should not be advertised as something you should use right out of the dojo on the streets.

The ground stuff was not said to be self-defense by the Gracies, so why do we think it is? Like I said before, those that can adapt, make the transitions from what is in the dojo to the streets will be able to use it for self-defense, at least in theory. Those that can't make those adjustments are due for a very big rude awakening if they ever do get into a real fight and think what is done in the dojo works the exact same in the streets.

Forth, I wanted to see if others believe BJJ or GJJ is a product of UFC style training and something that is going to stay and grow or disappear.

Renzo Gracie was involved, I think last May, in a mugging in New York, he, not thinking, went to do a Shoot attack on the mugger, but he hit the concrete and broke his knee cap. (He was used to working a mat or the ring, he did what he trained without thinking and he got injured). This is the reality of whatever training you do is the way you fight in a real situation.

I hear that the Gracies are working more on their stand up fighting including strikes and kicks. I believe they are cross-training in Hapkido.

The sport side will evolve with the rules of the game as those rules change. However, the street side will not change as GJJ and BJJ ground fighting was never claimed to be for self-defense. Instead, elements will be added to GJJ and BJJ to incorporate more standup grappling, more strikes and kicks for self-defense, but the core will remain what works in sport, according to the sport rules. IMHO.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 01:54:52 PM by Wado »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2004, 04:13:19 PM »
I agree ground technique is extremely important to women.  They are more likely to be thrown down, when the strikes didn't work or hit their target. If you watched the gals grapple at the Kaju event in Vegas this year you would see it would probably be more trouble then it is worth to a bad guy to try to get those gals in a bad position.  For the women against men, strike first and hard, run if possible, but if taken down, work to protect yourself and injure the other guy so you can get away safe.
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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2004, 10:19:39 PM »
Actually, a more precise (as well as recent) statistic on fist fights (usually between UNTRAINED individuals) is that fights end up on the ground 60% of the time. A very real study.

However, note that this is between untrained individuals. Some are probably very drunk, and there are probably alot of variables... and its only 60%. That 80% 90% stuff was probably just another one of those "made up on the spot" statistics that everyone just started repeating.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2004, 11:10:40 PM »
I'm glad there is a real study, and I agree always better to be prepared...  Kaju-style
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Offline V. F. Mateo

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2004, 01:49:38 AM »
I don't want to sound like a bad dude, but I'm a little guy. I trained in the CHA 3 Kenpo Karate under retired professor Frank Suan-full contact. I have fought in the streets of Texas, Kansas, and Hawaii...I am a veteran of foreign wars.

While in Kansas, I trained people from California, Hawaii, and Virginia-full contact. A person jumped on my back with a broken beer bottle. With my Judo experience, I threw him down. I applied the CHA 3 KENPO KARATE on him and broke 3 ribs of his, broke his nose, damaged his teeth and sent him to the hospital. There wasn't any need for jujitsu, and if I did I would probably be cut by the broken glass. And others might have pounded me with chairs and beer bottles.

If it is a true up and up fight...anything goes & KAJUKENBO IS TOP NOTCH...street fight with multiply attacks. I was jumped by 6 punks in a bar and it wasn't my fight. My friend, we will call him mousie is 5'4." He was harrassed by a guy who was 6'2." Mousie called me and I followed him. The bouncer said to take it outside, I said shoot! After taking 2 steps and following that punk, he nailed me with a beer mug. The others jumped me. They punched and kicked me but couldn't take me out. CHA 3 KENPO KARATE-WE TRAINED FULL CONTACT. They were trying to take my eyes out but I performed windmill blocks...so they maced me. "poop Happens." I couldn't see for 2 weeks...after getting myself together, I hunted them down. Say no mo! :-X

UFC TRAINING IS GOOD...SO IS KAJUKENBO! We have changed dramatically and the training is tremendous...at our school we have 10 ranges call concepts! Real fights don't last 3 rounds or 12 rounds. I am very fortunate, that I can convey my experiences. I am also thankful that I'm alive.  :)

A little guy who teaches!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2004, 02:40:47 PM by V. F. Mateo »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re:Handling a Grappler
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2004, 10:27:25 AM »
Nice story Sifu Frank, that just shows that a never say die attitude is really the king on the street. Either your born with it, which is rare, or your teacher instills it in you.  If you get both your golden.  Peace
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 10:28:08 AM by KajuJKDFighter »
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