Author Topic: Excessive force or well deserved punishment?  (Read 4670 times)

Offline Rock

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Excessive force or well deserved punishment?
« on: May 24, 2003, 01:50:39 AM »
I saw this post in another section, however it got me to thinking.  As an instructor/Sifu/Sensei/Etc... if someone chalanges your technique, to what extent do you go?

To clarify here is part of the post, it was specifically addressing a female instructor and a larger male student.

"I can remember on time I was teaching a self-defense technique, and this larger man told me that what I was doing wouldn't work.  He said that because he was stronger than I was he could keep me from hurting him, and thus the technique wouldn't work. I asked him to demonstrate what he would do.   I then kicked him in just to the side of the groin, inner thigh area, and then applied my wrist lock.  He was on the ground screaming like a baby. "


More questons to ponder on this.  I know of many students that "What If" or "Yeah, But" a technique, and claim that it won't work if they do this, or what if I do that. You know the situation I'm talking about.  

I believe that sometimes these question are important and can be benificial for discussion, but what do you do if a student becomes a pest.

Another thing is I know of certian techniques that work very well at speed and must be, for lack of a better phrase, staged to do at a practice speed.  I'm speaking of a lot of the Aikido and Jiu Jutsu type locks and manuevers. How would you deal with a student that just doesn't believe that a technique could be pulled off and want to see it work, without actually hurting them.

And Sensei Sue, I'm not disagreing with what you did, I'm just looking for advise about these situations.  I tend to see this type of behavior/questioning more with our teenage students, and I wouldn't want to hurt anyone intentionally... well most of the time that is ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Noel Araki
Hawaiian Kajukenbo Association
Mililani, Hawaii
www.hawaiiankajukenbo.com

Karazenpo

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Re: Excessive force or well deserved punishment?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2003, 07:25:24 AM »
Rock, I'll relate a real scary situation I had with a blue belt back around 1977 after I received my 1st dan. This guy was very muscular and on the quiet side. I was teaching a class on releases from different grabs and holds. The safety thing and passive resistance had been explained at the school from day one. Anyway, I picked this blue belt to put a full nelson on me. Well, I'll tell you, he put it on and started to crank my head and neck down where I immediately felt it on my spine. Instinctively, I placed the back of my hands to my forehead and pushed back as hard as I could to help neutralize some of the pressure. I couldn't even yell or talk. I then stepped behind his right leg with my left leg and twisted my hips as fast as I could counter clock-wise keeping my hands to my forehead. He fell, I landed on top of him and his head bounced off the hardwood floor to the tune of 13 stitches as I started to follow up on him but caught myself and called the paramedics. Several months later I read in the paper he shot and killed his girlfriend with a shotgun!
   My answer to your question is do what you have to do if you feel its life threatening. Do not even let liability enter your mind. If its something 'mickey mouse' try to teach the student a lesson without really messing him up because let's face it, you're credibility is on the line by the same token you don't want to be sued either. If its a misunderstanding, keep the student and give him a warning. If he's a problem, let him go! ;)  
   As far as just a pest, I use Mr. Parker's ideal phase and explain this is how we learn the technique to totally understand it and assimiliate it. This way we all have the same beginnings and start on the same page to develop our foundation. After that we entertain Mr. Parker's 'what if' phase and show variations of the attack and counters. This seems to work well for me and puts the pests in their place. They learn to 'shut up' during the 'ideal' phase, knowing they'll have their day during the 'what if' phase which you would do anyway when you get into variations and modifications. Works for me! ;)   Respectfully, Shihan Joe
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »

Offline D-Man

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Re: Excessive force or well deserved punishment?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2003, 04:30:33 PM »
I agree with Shihan Joe, they do eventually learn to shut up.

It's good for students to ask questions, I don't think they should keep silent. If you're practicing something "too deadly," flat out tell them it works in theory. Also, I believe that the dangerous stuff should only be taught to the upper ranks who already trust you, they won't have a problem understanding the technique's credibility.

Punishment? I think that you can do more damage (make them humble) by taking some face; proving them wrong, than hurting them. It's easy to hurt people, it's skillful to outsmart them. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to communicate kinesthetically.

It's kind of an ongoing joke where I train (probably in many other schools too) that whoever asks the questions gets to help answer, i.e., they get to dummy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »

Offline Rock

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Re: Excessive force or well deserved punishment?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2003, 02:19:57 AM »
Aloha and Mahalo Shihan Joe Shuras, D-Man, and Professor Gerry Scott,

Thank you for the input and the knowledge you have shared.  

Also Professor Gerry Scott, much Mahalo's for the kind words. I owe all of my success to Grandmaster Iversen and our school's "Ohana".  I owe all I know today to my instructor and our school.

Aloha,
Noel Araki
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Noel Araki
Hawaiian Kajukenbo Association
Mililani, Hawaii
www.hawaiiankajukenbo.com

Offline Nagi

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Re: Excessive force or well deserved punishment?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2003, 05:34:12 AM »
Quote

Another thing is I know of certian techniques that work very well at speed and must be, for lack of a better phrase, staged to do at a practice speed.  I'm speaking of a lot of the Aikido and Jiu Jutsu type locks and manuevers. How would you deal with a student that just doesn't believe that a technique could be pulled off and want to see it work, without actually hurting them.


I have a lot of M.A that come to my school time to time to cross train & many of them are from striking art's and want to learn joint locking which is our main focus. I ask them if they have a lot of time to spare tonight? Because if done at full speed, joints and bones will be broken and the wait in the ER is usually long. Seriously though we can usually bring said person to the brink of pain before they tap out or what I like doing is switching the lock since they know one was coming but not the one they thought. If they know the lock is coming they can brace/prepare them self's to fight off the lock and doing a totally different lock is a shock to them because it was unexpected and you are 1-2 steps ahead of said person.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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