Author Topic: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??  (Read 10628 times)

Offline MVPMatt

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Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« on: September 22, 2006, 11:25:30 PM »
Having not been in the experience of getting into fights in quite some time (younger time), I listen around here and there and keep hearing people say "a fight usually ends up on the ground".  I know I'm going to get my share of the "I don't start fights, I end them" lines, etc.  So, what I'd like to hear is from those with the experience, on whether this is true, or just something I keep hearing to get me interested in grappling?  It really gets annoying because I believe our style teaches a diversity (not trying to be politically correct  ;)) of ways to deal with fights and fighting situations, so there's no excess in one area, but a balance - hence 5 styles as one.  Regardless, it is something I hear to a point of nausea, and mostly from those I don't necessarily credit with much upstairs, but nevertheless (I know, big word) I'd like to hear it from those of us who've been there like; bouncers, security, bodyguards, law enforcement, etc.

Information only helps us train better for when it really counts.

Mahalo,

Sifu Matt
Sifu Matthew Porter
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Under Professor Rodney Alo
Athens, TX

Offline D-Fence

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2006, 03:42:38 PM »
90% of statistics are made up.  If most fights go to the ground I want to see the evidence.  Who conducted the study?  Why did they conduct the study?  How many different types of scenarios were looked at?  It all depends on who you want to believe.  In my personal experiance most untrained people end up on the ground.  Real fights occur very quikly.  Anything can happen in 2 or3 seconds.  Ground fighting (not wrestling but FIGHTING) is important to know so that you can get back on your feet.  The only problem I have seen with BJJ is that they spend hours training to go to the ground and fight from their backs.  This is an important aspect to train (especially for women) but it is not the be all and end all.  You will fight how you train.  In an emergency situation you will most likely not rise to the ocasion but fall back on your training.
William Heiser
Dean Goldade 6th Degree- U.S. Karate Systems, Georgetown TX

Offline MVPMatt

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2006, 10:44:04 PM »
DFence is echoing my point, but I'd still like to hear from others out there with experience on their dealings with the average or unusual fights and how they progress.  My sentiment is that the one who lost ends up on the ground and I walk away.  But again, I'm kinda out of the loop with today's scenes where fights tend to occur.

Any other thoughts, experiences and stories are appreciated.
Sifu Matthew Porter
3rd Degree Black Belt
Under Professor Rodney Alo
Athens, TX

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2006, 09:24:50 AM »
From the very few scuffles I have been in through the last ~8 years, most people try to grapple with, although some throw some strikes first.  I tend to counter their attempts to charge me/shoot my legs/trip me/etc and not go to the ground, but that is due to my training and alterness towards "the ground game."  Also, many of my newer students instinctively shoot for the legs or try to grab and hold on to me during sparring (since grappling is legal in our matches).  So I can see how the common saying of "most fights end up on the ground" came about.  Also, odds are if someone has training of any kind, it will be in wrestling.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
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Offline kajudaddy

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2006, 06:32:27 PM »
In many cases people are winded and throw sloppy strikes and fall over. Many recorded fights could be because they are alcohol related (need I say more on that subject). I have also observed that when people are getting the crud kicked out of them they instinctively clinch which can result in a ground fight. A well trained stand up fighter should be able to avoid most of these cases unless of course they are fighting a trained ground fighter. I have observed these scenario's at the prison I work for.This is just my opinion.
Paul Ferber
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Offline Sifu_Tony

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2006, 10:26:12 PM »
Most of the time fights end up on the ground is because of the one punch it takes to land that lucky wild swing to knock the guy out.
Navalta Kajukenbo
Perris, Ca

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 09:48:43 AM »
Well do most fights end on the ground?  Once again it is true that the 90% rule was a small study from LAPD, but the details really were in the ground fighters or let's say inexperienced clinchers favor.
   I started in the stand up game and moved into some heavy grappling other then wrestling years later.  A great stand up fighter with zero ground skill will most likely be taken down.  If a fighter realizes he can't win the stand up kicking or punching range game, instinct is to clinch or run.  If you run you are not in the stats.
   A pure puncher always has a "punchers chance" to get that one in, but this is very rare.  I have seen very few knockouts with one punch.  Even on the professional level you are hard pressed to fine someone that had that kind of luck.  Think of it as a hole in one.  Rare and also was anyone there to see it.
    I had a whole in one once...only one witness. darn... I have had one punch knockouts, but I always figure it was the luck of the draw that day, not my "awesome" skills.  I say this since so many people talk like they can knock someone out with the one punch, or knee to the grappler shooting their legs. Let's face it, most people can't really even get in a "good" punch in real fight.
   Everyone who has written so far has valid points, drunks fall, wild swingers fall, a clincher trips and falls, obstacles make you fall....or ice, or sand, or bar stools....etc....
   Other then a multiple man tackle, I have never been down in a street fight unless I did the take down.  I think that is from the ground skills allowing me to defend the shoot and clinch.  I have been in fights were all my friends went to the ground without trying, since it was many against the few.  Yet I stayed up.  Luck?  Maybe...but it didn't seem that way to me or my friends...
    I think the knowledge of the ground is Very important to be able to see the take down coming, stop a clinch take down
(Greco, judo), or the Free style wrestlers shoot.  Another factor is punching range skill.  A very skilled stand up fighter does bring about what I would call an "Air of Fear".
    Others may have second thoughts or trying a take down on a fighter who is throwing vicious heat from his fists.
 People think they are tough till they have to make that decision to attack and risk 5 across the eyes, or just stay away.
   Most statistically stay out of the fight, that's why many are attacked on the street in the middle of the day and know one helps.  Unless a Kaju practitioner is near to help...that is....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Danjo

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 04:13:50 PM »
About half of my fights went to the ground. Sometimes because I'd take them there if I thought I'd do better there. When i was a kid, I favored the side headlock. When I got a lot older I still favored that sort of thing. I got to where I could tap out BJJ purple belts on occasion with a neckcrank from indside their mount or guard. My instructor, a black belt under Ralph Gracie had me put it on him after watching me do that move a few times to see what it was like. He said, "darn, the more I move to get out of it, the worse it hurts. This might be your move Dan."
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 04:19:54 PM »
That side headlock is Really old school...well or middle school.....goodtimes
GM John E Bono DC
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline lairkenpo

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2006, 08:44:38 PM »
I was a cop for over 10 years in a town of about 50,000. Most of the time, you had no back-up on disturbances (at least for the first 5 years of my career). Being somewhat small for the rural South (I was 5'6, about 145 lbs), the "good ole' boys" always thought they were about to have some fun. To say the least, fistfights were MORE than commom. At this time, our Chief was a former-FBI agent. If you used anything that he could consider "inappropriate force", well, you wouldn't have a job very long. Thanks to our art, I never had to use anything other than acceptable force, and never used an impact weapon, chemical agent, or "stun-type device" in all of those years (other than the one incident where it was necessary to use my handgun on a knife-wielding suspect to prevent him from injuring other persons). I can honestly say that I can only think of one or two incidents where the situation went "to the ground". I was taught to put my opponent down, but to stay on my feet, if possible. Being small, I always kept that in the back of my mind. I couldn't have afforded to roll around on the ground, and take the chance of the situation escalating by someone getting hold of my weapon. No, these weren't often the classic "knockouts" (knocking an opponent unconscious could get you into a world of trouble, not to mention a civil lawsuit), but were mostly the result of using a few dependable restraint techniques.

Now, let me say that when the suspect brandished a weapon, I didn't go all "Walker: Texas Ranger" and try to disarm him barehanded if it wasn't necessary. That's what my Beretta  was for. But , the few instances where a weapon was brought into play by a suspect where I couldn't get to my little Italian friend, the disarming skills that I trained in worked ... every time! All these incident are documented. Again, I can't think of a single incident where I went to the ground with someone wielding a weapon.

I believe that, at least in my experience, if you train to stay off the ground, and to get back onto you feet ASAP when taken down, well, you react the way you're trained. I'm not now, nor was I then, a "tough guy". Yes, my training since I was 12 years old (I'm 50 years old now) admittedly gave me a great advantage over being  untrained. But, I also believe that if I had trained in a ground-fighting method, I wouldn't be here to write this letter.

Sifu Robert Windle
5th Degree Black Belt, Hawaiian Kenpo
The Lair Hawaiian Kajukenbo Kenpo
Jonesboro, AR

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Offline Stan Kristovich

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2006, 01:10:17 AM »
Sifu Matt,

First off, this is a great topic, and I am glad you asked the question.  It is something that I have wondered about.  Our chief instructor also repeats the mantra that fights will go to the ground.  We do train in some grappling skills so that we're not completely unprepared.

I am a lucky soul in that I haven't been in a fight for 20 years.  In that case, though, I was jumped by a gang -- one out front trying to show how tough he could be, with about 6 - 8 backup.  I was a college student renting an apartment on the border of a rough neighborhood (and no fight training really).  I tried to walk away from that fight but after getting hit in the back of the head the third time I tried to stand my ground.  Then the gang jumped me.  I was knocked down to my knees and was saved by a bystander calling out that the police were coming.

This story is included all by way of explanation.  Even though I have some basic skills in grappling I am very, very uncomfortable when ground fighting -- it is a very vulnerable position to be in if your attacker has friends.  I think it's important to train at many ranges and to practice ground fighting, but I always tell my students that the point is to know how to deal with grapplers, not to try to fight it out with them in their element.  I am a big believer in getting back on your feet as soon as possible.

This doesn't quite meet the criteria in your question (about experience with fights) but I brought it up because it was a real situation that illustrates another aspect of the go-to-the-ground problem; an opponent with backup.

Regards,
Stan K

PS -- The guy who helped me up said he called out the police were coming because I decided to stand and defend myself.  Before that there were a lot of bystanders, just watching.  It is hard to say what might have happened if I had decided to try to run (except, being perennially chubby, they would have caught up to me ;)).  To this day, I don't know if that guy's decision was based in respect for my decision to defend myself, or pity because I was getting hammered.  But the sequence of events serves to illustrate how fluid any fight can be.
Aloha,
Stan Kristovich
(a Black Belt instructor [and currently on extended sabattical] in North Las Vegas, Nevada
Formerly of Stevenson Kenpo-Karate, Mililani, HI

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2006, 11:03:20 AM »
A skill students all need to learn is How to stand up after being taken or knocked down.  There is a skill set to this....
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

juribe

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2006, 02:30:35 PM »
A skill students all need to learn is How to stand up after being taken or knocked down.  There is a skill set to this....

Professor:

Based only on my experience being taken down while sparring in class (I have never been in any real fights to speak of), I agree that this is an important skill to learn. Once you're down there with someone standing over you, you realize that you need to find a way to get up quick without being struck or taken down again.

Do you do drills to teach this or do your students learn by doing, in class?

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2006, 02:46:15 PM »
There are a few drills, they are fairly easy to learn and work.  The more difficult scenario is standing while you both are down, since they can hold you in position, but I have some drills for that also...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 02:51:36 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline KBOWARRIOR

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Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2006, 08:46:10 AM »
Prof. Bono, the study by LAPD is something you have to take into context.  They looked at a years worth of LAPD use of force reports and determined that about 98% of the time subjects go to jail without incident.  They looked at the remaining 2% to determine how a suspect reacts and what is the final outcome.  As a law enforcement officer, once any type of aggression is started I can almost always tell you the fight will end up on the ground.  Not with me on the ground, but the suspect.  You have to be able to handle the situation.   In the altercations I have been involved in over the 18 yrs. suspects usually aren't going full out trying to rip your head off, they are trying to get away from you because they don't want to go to jail.  They may try to hit you a couple of times when the altercation is first joined, but then it is about escape.  The ground or other object to stop them is used for control.  Control holds, wrist locks, ect. don't work on crooks, they work great on cops.  Same with the "bug juice".  It doesn't have a good stopping percentage except when the back blast hits the officer, stopped dead in his/her tracks.  Tasers are close to a 100% or so I have heard.  Don't have a great deal of experience with them. 
 8)
Sifu Mark Wallace
Harper Kajukenbo
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Emperado Revised System