Author Topic: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??  (Read 10627 times)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2006, 11:01:52 AM »
I agree Sifu Mark the LAPD study was flawed, just from the circumstance.....you fight the police, they will most likely take you down for control.  A street fight is different.
     I did my own little study asking students over the years periodically about street fights.  It seems before any training most fights went to the ground with little if any real fighting after that point unless mounted during the circumstance of the fall/takedown.  I believe this to be from the inexperience of the fighters.  Most of the people out there playing sports etc..believe at some level that they CAN fight.  Reality sets in in a real fight, when they throw punches and hit nothing.  Frustration sets in in seconds and the clinch is inborn in many from wrestling around with your friends etc...
   They clinch trip and fall (maybe thrown down, but more often fall and act like they actually meant the takedown)  Now you have two unskilled people hugging for the most part.
   The skilled students...training for a while have a tendancy to stand up and win, even the very skilled ground fighters, that I would think would take the person down, tend to keep on their feet and use the boxing skills and foot work to avoid the take down/clinch and strike to win the fight...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline slim

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Everyone has fight plan, untill they get hit!!
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2006, 12:51:12 PM »
well i will have to say before i started training back innew orleans the only time the fight went to the ground is if you were knocked down then, if you could, you would get up or get stomped out.  Since i started training a year or so a go i have had two fights the only one that went to the ground was when i was drunk and the gu was ablt to lock with me. once on the ground the guy had no skills, he only watched ufc, and lost the fight.  I would say that i have seen an increase in the fights going to the ground becuase of an influence of MMA in the media.  its even apperent in the new student we get down at the dojo, they alll come in after a few episodes of the ultimate fighter and think they can do BJJ but realize that everyone has a plan untill they get hit. so my conculsion is that most fights between untrained fighters go to the ground but a battle between two trained figters usually wont unless there trained in a style of ground fighting. 

all my own opion based on personally experience. B-ez SLIM
James Thomas - purple belt - Grande Rhonde Kung Fu - La Grande, OR - Sigung Kenneth JKohnson - Sifu Brain Dean

Offline guarded

  • BlackBelt
  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 250
  • He who hesitates, meditates; horizontally!
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2006, 02:32:00 PM »
my personal experience in street fights involves about 10 or 12 fights.  Some were much more involved then others but none actually went to the ground.  I seen many though involving freinds that ended up on the ground.  Especially ones with wrestling backrounds.  I had enough wrestling to be able to avoid being takendown and had the standup to end it pretty decisively on my feet.  I just think it depends a lot on the background of who is fighting.
Jerry Guard
Kajukenbo Tum Pai Brown/Black Sash under Prof. Steve Larson          My everyday stance is my fighting stance.  My fighting stance is my everyday stance.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2006, 02:37:58 PM »
I agree it it very situational.....who is in it and where they are at....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Gints Klimanis

  • Moderators
  • Black Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 1159
    • Gentlemen's Fighting Club
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 09:23:11 PM »
I agree with Prof. Bono's descriptions on how fights move to the ground.   

At the very least, we know that most fights start with both combatants standing. 
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2006, 10:36:35 PM »
We can only hope we are not attacked sitting say at a restaurant.....usually standing and hopefully 10 seconds later we're walking away and they are ....let's say resting..
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2006, 01:34:42 PM »
My question Professor Harper is why was Santino so easy on the guy is he going soft??   
All kidding aside, yes most people fight embarrassingly bad, but if a huge guy gets you down even without skill, you need that ground skill if you are smaller to work position or get yourself up....
   I always say at my school, "when all else is equal cubic inches takes over"   
Example; I drive most times most old 1970 Sedan De Ville, huge car, old technology....but 472 engine, 400 HP and 550 torque.........so when the new Mustangs or whatever hit the gas they are shocked this giant car scoots ahead of them, with my arm hanging out the window, music going and no shifting......it's just pure old fashion physics...
Like was stated already things are very different ring to street.....that's something us Kaju folks I think have an up on people ..........
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 01:53:38 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

  • BlackBelt
  • Brown Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 529
  • llama llama
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2006, 03:31:07 PM »

How many actually want to take a fight to the ground?

I've found that if one or both parties (assuming two people only) wants to take the fight to the ground, there is a much better probability that one or both will end up there. I've seen failed takedowns where one just is holding on to the other who they failed to take down, and they might have a leg or something, the other has his hands free and is just pounding on the first guy who is on his knees. I've also seen successful takedowns where the guy ends up on top pounding on the other guy (the reverse of the first situation).

I've brought a fight to the ground to avoid it from spreading to nearby glass table and fagile objects. I know police will take a person to the ground to immobilize them.


How many end up on the ground because of accident?

How many don't intend to take it to the ground but one or the other gets stunned or loses balance, maybe grabs on to something and goes down? I've seen guys go down from punches and the other gets on top and pounds them in the head.


How many end up on the ground because they lock up and grapple?

I've seen people just lock up and eventually it goes to the ground. People try to use strength and they forget about how important position and mobility can be. Like trying to punch someone with power and ending up getting tackled easily instead of sprawling and making it hard for them to take you down.


Lots of questions...
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

souljahnyne

  • Guest
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2006, 07:43:49 AM »
In my experience, the majority of fights i get into dont end up in a "grappling" situation. 100% of them tho DO have my opponent on the ground eventually. and that is because i really make it a habit not to restrict myself into a "one on one" type grapple and mentality such as choke holds and locks. i never know whos around me and i always gotta make sure i dont get shanked from the back or snuck up on.  im more on the trademark "dance of death" that came from the kenpo part of kajukenbo. that being said tho, there are alot of times where (at least in what i've seen) people fight and one goes on top of the other and start smacking the nationality outa the other guy wen he's on the ground. i assume most of you are familiar with that patten. A-B aggression is exchanged, followed by exchange of A-B physical contact, A gains upperhand while B gets decked, A goes after B (whos is on the floor). its theusual pattern of what i see, and from that basis i can say that ground contact is eminent in more fights. even in 2 boxers that ive seen and know personally. they had a bit of a verbal exchange over a girl, and in the end, one of them was in the floor with the other guy on top of him pounding his fance in. hehe, hope i contributed in ahelpful way ~_^

Offline jensad

  • Senior Black Belt
  • Yellow Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 67
  • We are not if you can afford it, we will award it
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2007, 02:29:47 PM »
In reply to Robert Windle

Kajukenbo WORKS well by not having to use it and when one uses it it REALLY WORKS VERY WELL!!!!

Although now retired, I was also in law enforcement in California.  As a Berkeley officer I observed few fights got to the ground.  The ones I had to deal with went to the ground so not to hurt the person (too much).  I was then able to control them.

I also took knives  away from 2 uncooperative "clients".

I also had a "client" try to kill me one night.  I was able to grag his gun, and I (honest) unintentionally broke his jaw in six places, pushed it back into his face, and almost killed him.   I am grateful I did not use my energy.

The real benefit of being a Kajukenbo practitioner was I RARELY ever had to use my Art.  People know who we are by the way we are.  The way we walk, talk, for a beter word, our energy (auras etc.)  and essence of our being, communicates who we are much more than what we say. 

Point was I rarely had any problems and when I did, what I was taught worked. 

KAJUKENBO WORKS EXTREMELY WELL, but it works much better when we do not have to use it, we just need to LIVE IT!!!!  And having been in Kajukenbo under Great Grand Master Charles H. Gaylord, since 1963, I am most greatful to be alive and able to contribute my small little reply.

Good luck to all and keep our Art strong and growing.

jensad
Jim Nordlie
Since 1963 a student of Great Grand Master Charles H. Gaylord.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2007, 02:37:30 PM »
Wow it's great to hear from Professor Nordlie on the cafe.......some old school experience.....Goodtimes
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Vala Au

  • Guest
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2007, 04:50:54 PM »
Here's one that gives me a warm fuzzy.  One of my many sordid part time jobs was doing a little moonlighting Bouncin at a strip club that is known for it's girly mags.  We were hosting an after party for a "Rumble on the Rocks"  MMA fight.

One of the guests, unbeknownst to me at the time because I had just recently started watching UFC, was putting his hands on the merchandise.  I won't say his name, but he is from here and is a world class middle weight.  I told him to keep his hands to himself.  He said he could easily whoop my asp.  I just told him to be more of a gentlemen since it was a gentlemens club.

What's funny is later that night, a middle aged fat guy ( like myself) that works for our city's finest, beat his asp down for acting up in public.  Nuthin pretty or fancy or long winded grapplin moves, just good ol beat down.

Good times

Offline KajuJKDFighter

  • Senior Moderator
  • Black Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3442
  • "Accept the things to which fate binds you"
    • Bono's Jeet Kune Do and Kajukenbo
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2007, 06:16:37 PM »
Awesome story.......lessons in respect comes hard some times, but I hope it was a life lesson for that young man....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Vala Au

  • Guest
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2007, 06:39:10 PM »
Yep, that'll learn him.

Offline Brandi Ross

  • Global Moderator
  • Brown Belt
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
  • Always a student.....
Re: Does the fight usually end up on the ground??
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2007, 11:19:30 PM »
Here's one that gives me a warm fuzzy.  One of my many sordid part time jobs was doing a little moonlighting Bouncin at a strip club that is known for it's girly mags.  We were hosting an after party for a "Rumble on the Rocks"  MMA fight.

One of the guests, unbeknownst to me at the time because I had just recently started watching UFC, was putting his hands on the merchandise.  I won't say his name, but he is from here and is a world class middle weight.  I told him to keep his hands to himself.  He said he could easily whoop my asp.  I just told him to be more of a gentlemen since it was a gentlemens club.

What's funny is later that night, a middle aged fat guy ( like myself) that works for our city's finest, beat his asp down for acting up in public.  Nuthin pretty or fancy or long winded grapplin moves, just good ol beat down.

Good times

Hmmm I wonder who this is!!!! :D  Wasn't this like less than two years ago?
Brandi Ross
Black Belt
Kingi's Kajukenbo
GM Rick Kingi
formerly under Sigung Alex Cadang