Author Topic: Sport or Disipline?  (Read 13680 times)

Offline Mell

  • BlackBelt
  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
  • www.watchthelamb.com
    • Watch the Lamb Ministries
Sport or Disipline?
« on: June 16, 2003, 11:01:57 PM »
I recently attended a local tournament and competed in the self defense division.  My instructor and I both had our score lowered for being "overly aggressive" in our demonstration.  Apparantly the curcuit feels that it is inappropiate to disarm an attacker of a weapon and then use that weapon against the attacker in order to stop them.   Somehow we became bad examples to others and irresponsible.   :o

I have much to say about this, but I'd rather hear from you.   Is kajukenbo a sport, or is it a disipline?  
« Last Edit: June 16, 2003, 11:04:28 PM by Mell »
Sibak Mellody Porter
ANDERSON MARTIAL ARTS - Grafton, Ohio
www.ohiokajukenbo.com
www.watchthelamb.com

M.Rose

  • Guest
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2003, 11:13:46 PM »
That is just disgusting to hear. Is it possible to be "overly aggresive" with somone who is trying to kill you? I would think not. Since Kajukenbo incorporates various non-sport techniques (like vital point strikes) I would have to say that it is most definately NOT a sport in any regard. This is only based on my knowledge of Kajukenbo gained through hours of reading as opposed to physical practice and experience. Even so, I feel I can safely say that Kajukenbo is a discipline designed to cope with the brutality of the REAL world.

Offline badsifu

  • restricted
  • Brown Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 971
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2003, 11:58:48 PM »
:):):):):):)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 11:54:33 AM by badsifu »
Dan Tyrrell

napashifu

  • Guest
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2003, 01:37:45 AM »
Some people just don't appreciate the beauty of  a good beating :'(, espically if it is done in a precise and painfull manner. So don't wory about the scores,and don't lower the level of your intensity to make some judges happy ;)

ram

  • Guest
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2003, 04:09:22 AM »
As a white belt I was very eager to learn self-defense techniques, but I was pretty blown away when I saw how it was done in Kajukenbo for my very first time. I told my instructror that I don't ever want to hurt anyone the way that he was teaching us to. His reply was that anytime someone puts your life or the life of your loved ones in danger,you will do whatever it takes to protect yourself and your family...ANYTHING! So whenever we practice self-defense techniques, we would do it with the ferosity and viciousness of a mother lion protecting her cubs...but when training was over, we'd be reminded that we should injure only to a degree. We should know when to stop.
As to self-defense in tournaments, keep in mind that you are being judged, make sure that you know what the judges are looking for before you compete. I was always told that in tournaments, the person standing in the ring with you is only half of the opponent, the other half is the judges or referees. I'm sure it applies to self-defense in tournaments also...So I suggest that you practice it the way you were taught, but if you choose to compete in tournaments do the necessary modifications for the tounament only...
Remember that in the streey the object is survival and the prize...your life!
And remember the motto: It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried my six.

                        RAMMET

sleddog

  • Guest
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2003, 07:58:52 AM »
To heck with the judges. This type of competition was developed by kajukenbo and kajukenbo type schools to begin with. What you are seeing is a protection of market share. If their student's see you applying a technique that actually works in the real world it would show up their stuff for being the garbage it is.

There is a saying in Kajukenbo, "It is not who is right, but who is left" This sound pretty trite, but the truth of it is hard to escape. To survive, even in defeat, is a choice we make. There are some pretty drastic changes we have to force our psyches through, and this type of training helps to see why.

I remember being it a small "anything goes" full contact tournament in 1975 and being told by a judge that I had not kicked enough during my match. My opponent out weighed me by 70 lbs, and was 8 -9 inches taller than I was and I had just knocked him out, I was also wary of his ability to grab my kick and pummel me. This was before I discovered the leg kicking in Muay Thai. What an imbecile. His lack of knowledge what overwhelming.

This judge was there (as a judge) because he showed up that day. He had no real experience or preparation for this type of event. I have no doubts that the judges of your event were cut from the same cloth.

Kajukenbo has always been a little "out there". We are considered a bit nuts by those who do not know us, but the quality of your performance should have been the only yardstick used to judge it. The judge's personal bias' not withstanding, this is a show and your ability to both give and receive the power exhibited should have counted in your favor, not penalised you.

Hope this does not sour your desires to compete in the future.

PG

Offline Dennis Peterson

  • BlackBelt
  • Yellow Belt
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2003, 08:42:28 AM »
When you have a judge (ice skating ring a bell?) you are being judged under what they want to see or saw.  Tournaments are okay to give you a goal of some kind to strive for but the last tournament I went to I saw an under belt 'judge' a grand champion Black Belt form division, yea right.  I cannot even count the times I had points given or taken from me that both myself and competitor knew were bogus.  There is no tournament judge clinics, it is "You have a Black Belt?  We could use you in ring such and such..."

As for being to brutal, you have to articulate why you did what you did, "I was in fear for my life, I felt there was no other way to defend myself, yadda, yadda".  Kajukenbo goes to the extreme to ensure we stay alive.  Better to train for that then point sparring.  Remember when Kajukenbo was founded it was during the war years on an Island running with military personnel...

My two cents.

Sifu Dennis Peterson
Peterson' Mixed Martial Arts Academy
Professor Dennis Peterson
Under Grandmaster Mitch Powell
Original Method Kajukenbo/MMA

Offline cirillo

  • Moderators
  • Blue Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
    • Wun Hop Kuen Do
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2003, 08:55:08 AM »
Personally, I feel that it is ridiculous to score down for being overly aggreassive.  If you don't follow through... use the weapons that were being used against you, then you are at a disadvantage.  Yes, leave the opponent alive on the ground and have them pull out a gun and shoot you as you walk away.  I don't think so.

Better yet.  Have them live another day so that they can go home and get a gun and shoot you.>:(

If you can honestly say that your life was threatened by the (simulated) attacker than I would assume that you can remove the threat.  That is self defense.  We (I speak for some of us) are not in law enforcement.  I train to protect my life and that of my family.  If my life isn't threatened, there is no need for me to respond.  If I respond because my life or that of my family is threatened, than it is going to be all the way.  I do not plan to worry about who will end up in jail.  Just who will walk away.

Just my opinion. ;D
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Karazenpo

  • Guest
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2003, 09:03:09 AM »
I agree with Professor Gelinas on this totally.  badsifu, you do make a good point about disarming and neutralizing the knife threat. In police circles we call that de-escalation of force. In other words, we escalate to deadly force techniques but if the attacker is neutralized without killing him then we de-escalate accordingly. That's basically text book but the text book also has EXCEPTIONS or what we refer to as 'exigent circumstances'. One thing wrong with that. Way back when, I forget the year but I believe it occured in  N.Y. Some street thug was smashing the windows of automobiles with a tire iron. A martial artist, I believe he was black belt, intervened and disarmed him. He then de-escalated and held him done as someone else summoned police. He did not notice the suspect pull a knife from his pocket and fatally stab the 'good samaritan'. One thing, when you disarm someone, if you are still in fear of great bodily injury of death you may continue deadly force.

Let, me run this past everyone. We are trained in handgun retention. Statistics show that if the bad guy goes for your gun and you successfully regain control then you are to create distance, cover him and tell him to stop and get down because if he goes for it a second time-HE GETS THE GUN! Why? maybe you exhausted yourself and  he's probably 'wired', maybe he figured out how you did it or maybe a little bit of both. Regardless, you're dead meat! We are trained to create distance after successfully retaining the gun and while covering the suspect with the weapon give clear, concise and authoritive commands to stop and get down. If he lunges for the gun again, guess what? Two rounds center mass and that's the bottom line! That's how they train us for the 'real world', it makes sense to me, I want to go home at the end of my shift. ;)

Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: June 17, 2003, 09:04:21 AM by Shihan Joe Shuras »

Offline Nagi

  • Blue Belt
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
    • Hapkido
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2003, 10:54:00 AM »

This is exactly why im not fond of tournaments >:(
Your out there showcasing your talents anf they frown on it. Oh wait a minute maybe they are jealous?
They should deduct points for the awful uniforms they wear to those things.
I wouldn't lose sleep or give it a second thought

Sensei Ron
It takes many wise acts to be considered a wise person, but only one foolish act to be considered a fool
www.tmi-selfdefense.com

Offline Dennis Peterson

  • BlackBelt
  • Yellow Belt
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2003, 01:18:00 PM »
Shihan Joe,

We call that style "ching, ching, pow".  Seriously though first time is a trick second time is a lesson.  I do not give those kind of lessons on the street.  I agree with you, not to me, my partner or on my watch.

Sifu Dennis Peterson
Peterson' Mixed Martial Arts Academy
Professor Dennis Peterson
Under Grandmaster Mitch Powell
Original Method Kajukenbo/MMA

Offline badsifu

  • restricted
  • Brown Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 971
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2003, 01:11:23 AM »
:):):):):):)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 11:55:06 AM by badsifu »
Dan Tyrrell

Offline EmptyCup

  • White Belt
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2003, 01:36:23 AM »
Just two words for everyone....

SELF   DEFENSE

 ::)
As the young man told the wise man about all that he had learned from other wise men, the wise man continued to pour tea until the cup over flowed. When the young man asked the old man why he continued to pour the old man responded, "You must first empty your cup to receive anything."

Karazenpo

  • Guest
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2003, 08:29:02 AM »
True, badsifu, but when you disarm him, take him to the ground and have obviously taken possession of the gun (you can't leave it lying on the ground and give him or someone else the opportunity to grab it) and he goes to wrestle it from you and he's totally wired, his eyes telling you he has the intent to kill, what do you do?  ???   I agree, if he totally surrenders to you, you de-escalate but if not you may have to shoot! Justification: In fear of great bodily injury or death. No one in law enforcement circles will second guess you on that one! Tough situation to be in, but it happens!

Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Offline cirillo

  • Moderators
  • Blue Belt
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
    • Wun Hop Kuen Do
Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2003, 08:57:14 AM »
I am sorry, but I can not agree that just because I am in control of the situation, I am responsible for his life.  The attacker made his choice when he chose to use lethal force on me.  His life is then forfeit.

If I took the gun and shot him in the head, I am positive that it would be justified by his having used lethal force.  Frankly, I would feel safer with him dead.  Remember, I am a civilian and he used lethal force.  What is to prevent him from taking advantage of any brief opportunity?  I guess some people are perfect, but I don't carry handcuffs and getting rope for his hands until the police get there doesn't seem very smart.

It is certainly a personal choice, but if I actually manage to get the gun (which is something that involves risking my life anyway), he will not get a chance to get it back.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX