Author Topic: Sport or Disipline?  (Read 13780 times)

Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2003, 09:00:16 AM »
I would think that if someone attacked me with a deadly weapon and I am fortunate enough to get that weapon away from him (without already having killed him!) I would, without thought, shoot, stab, etc. to kill.

"Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!"

I don't want to take chances.  I would say that the use of deadly force would be justified.  I hope I never have to find out!

Plus, what if he comes back another day to "finish the job?"



Offline kajukenbo Dad

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2003, 12:15:53 PM »
Now, Who ever has courage and a strong collected spirit in his Breast, let him come forward,lace on the Gloves and put up his hand......let keep Kajukenbo simple and beautiful.....thanks for your great posts

Offline Pacificshore

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2003, 12:44:23 PM »
Howdy everyone!

In regards to this topic, self defense against weapons, there is such a thing as "justifiable homicide".  Although there may be a difference between being a "civilian" and being a "cop" in relation to the use of deadly force, there is also a thing called "self preservation".

If a civilain was walking home, and was confronted with a deadly attack, which he/she defended against, and used deadly force to end the confrontation, is that any different when the victim is an off duty cop walking to his/her car after a shift?

In my opinion, I don't think so because to me an off duty cop would be just another civilian.  So long as you have a fear that great bodily injury or death will be eminent, then the use of deadly force becomes justifiable.

Just my rambling opinion :)
Gene R.
Kara-Ho Kempo

Offline Mell

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2003, 10:26:41 PM »
Well, in regards to my first post, we certainly do not care about whether we win or lose at a tournament.

What is care about is the fact that as students of self defense, we have to learn to defend ourselves using all available weapons.  I we teach our students how to defend against a knife attack but never teach them how to effectivly hold and use a knife, are we not fooling them and ourselves into thinking that they have all the skills they need?

Our self defense at tournaments is run in a continous fashion as if the attacker is intending to keep coming at the defender until the defender has no choice but to put him down.  We think the other competitors are just jealous of us.  

KAJUKENBO RULES!!!!!!!!
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Offline badsifu

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2003, 12:25:33 AM »
I really do like where this post is headed.  I think it is very constructive and educational.  CA law is probably a little different than other states, but it can't stray too far from the mark.

In regards to Shihan's post, I do, and I believe a jury would as well, agree that if you took the weapon from the attacker's hands and they continued their attacks (especially if they were drunk/on drugs/just nuts) that there would be no question that you were defending yourself.


For Cirillo:
The real issue is in the follow up attacks that most Kaju people use while the person has already been taken into control.  I disarm the attack, knock him to the ground, then take him out by cutting his throat, breaking his neck/spine, strangling etc.  It is no longer self-defense.  Doesn't matter if he attacked me first.  I can NOT ethically or legally take his life once I have control of the situation.  Let's say the guy is normally a nice guy, has a wife and kids, but is bipolar, forgets his meds.  You cut him off driving, he gets out of his car at the next stop and tries to stab at you.  You are gonna be the judge, jury, and executiioner?  You do your best to defend yourself, take him down, and you should be the better person and just control him from there - not at the risk of your own life ... but not at the cost of his either.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline cirillo

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2003, 09:19:28 AM »
I would say, badsifu, that our approaches would just be different.

I would never try to control him... I would just finish him.  I consider every other approach a risk (and I don't really care how slight the risk is, my life is too valuable to me and my family).  This isn't a video game where you get a second chance.  Since the attacker came with lethal force, I have the freedom not to consider alternatives (usually there isn't time anyway).  If you take the microsecond to think about it you're dead.  That's your choice.  I just hope you don't come up against someone with more skill than you and you try to control them (you should realize that you DON'T have to try and control them).

No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.  Any other statement is just ego.

Personally, I am not going to ask the attacker his experience level and whether he is REALLY a nice guy.  His actions determine my actions.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Sigung Harper

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2003, 11:33:45 AM »
 8)
What would i do if someone pulled a knife on me ???
if i could not get away from them and was forced, then the answer is simple,
I would take no chance with my life, I love my children & grandchildren to much,
i would kill them  >:(
just make it short & clean.
we over train in kajukenbo for a reason.
we do so as to be ready for as sijo would say what eva.
but those of you who have been in real combat know that it will be over far befor you are ready to stop.
if I slit your throat it will not be necessary to poke you in the eye, break you back slit your belly open, (on & on)  
you can talk about the law & your responsibility,but you better deal with reality if you want to live.
if your train for these situation's you will know ahead of time what you will tell the law.
i will not post those.
but my people know what to say & do.
in class when you play with knife tech. you had better play like your life is on the line & not like, wow that is a cool tech.
know where to put the knife fast & clean.

if it worked out that i did not have to kill, then i would not, but when my life is on the line then my intent is to kill.
the first thing i teach my people to do when confronted with a knife is to RUN.
if not possible then you KILL >:(  if you want to live
Aloha & see you in Vegas in a couple of weeks.

Offline Sifu Julian

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2003, 11:43:27 AM »
Aloha!

Great thread!

Mell---since this is originally your question I will respond to it first:

Discipline! (Ain't no other answer to this question or it ain't Kajukenbo!!)

My first teacher required us to go to one (1) tournament during our time as underbelt. I went as a white belt (which is what I was in our school) but had been training about 5-6 months. I won the white belt fighting trophy and won with (yes, I am embarrassed to say this) a downward back knuckle to the top of the head.  ???   I had never seen one before the tournament but after watching a few rounds I picked some stuff up and just improvisied. Never went to another tourney after that---what they do is just way too different from Kajukenbo. (Side note---in the Midwest there are a good number of instructors but we all descend from Prof. Alan Carter.)

So, if you want to continue to go to the tourneys---great, just don't back away from real SELF-DEFENSE!  (One of the other reasons I quit going was because I didn't want to practice tech's 2 ways (i.e. reality and tourney)

Now, to answer some of the other juicy stuff that has come up . . .

I completely agree with Sigung Gelinas, Shihan Shuras, and Sifu Cirillo---someone comes at me with LETHAL or DEADLY FORCE . . . his goose is cooked. He won't make it to the ground alive---I will finish him off standing up. He will be DOA when he arrives at the ground, much less the hospital.

Notice I said DEADLY or LETHAL --- anything less gets a lesser response. Literally ALL of my instructors are police officers with a combined 60-65 years of police service. They know what works. Period. I could tell you their stories but I will save them for another time.

So, when someone comes at me with a knife to hurt my 1 year old daughter, my wife, or (last) me---he made his bad decision already. I don't have time to wonder if he forgot his Prozac or if he is just wacked out on PCP and won't remember tomorrow. He just frankly made a bad decision. I will apoligize to the widow at the trial and let the chips fall where they will. But, I have no doubt that with a sterling record and no violent history any jury (except maybe in CA) would acquit. Involuntary Manslaughter---case closed.

Quote
No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.  Any other statement is just ego.

Couldn't have said that any better, Sifu Cirillo!

I have one little "trite"  ::)  saying to add to the list that Sigung Gelinas began:   "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6!"Words to LIVE by!

Mahalo & Aloha!

Sifu Julian
« Last Edit: June 19, 2003, 11:48:58 AM by Sifu Julian »
Professor Julian Sims
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Offline Mell

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2003, 09:10:31 PM »
A downward back knuckle strike to the head!!!  ::)  Glad to hear you have progressed past that annoying technique.  It take a real man to admit that!  (This is my form of joking - OK?)

Sibak Mellody Porter
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Jking

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2003, 10:45:25 PM »
Its funny you should mention this. A few months back, I was part of a demonstration in our area to promote our school to people who really dont know anything about martial arts. You could imagine how many "OOOHH!!!" and "WHOH" we got. There were martial artist from other styles who were there who were shocked as well. No one had ever seen anything like it before. We didnt' do fancy flips, or crazy moves either. Groin strikes, eye strikes, throat strikes elbows, knees. Everything was the Kajukenbo way.

Afterwords, I talked with my martial buddies and most were amazed and looked at kajukenbo in a differant way, though there were some who felt that it wasn't right. That martial arts "Doesn't work that way" and that in a fight "You wouldn't do that"

In the end, most people, as well as a large sum of martial artists dont really understand Kajukenbo.

M.Rose

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2003, 11:25:25 PM »
"I completely agree with Sigung Gelinas, Shihan Shuras, and Sifu Cirillo---someone comes at me with LETHAL or DEADLY FORCE . . . his goose is cooked. He won't make it to the ground alive---I will finish him off standing up. He will be DOA when he arrives at the ground, much less the hospital.

Notice I said DEADLY or LETHAL --- anything less gets a lesser response. Literally ALL of my instructors are police officers with a combined 60-65 years of police service. They know what works. Period. I could tell you their stories but I will save them for another time.

So, when someone comes at me with a knife to hurt my 1 year old daughter, my wife, or (last) me---he made his bad decision already. I don't have time to wonder if he forgot his Prozac or if he is just wacked out on PCP and won't remember tomorrow. He just frankly made a bad decision. I will apoligize to the widow at the trial and let the chips fall where they will. But, I have no doubt that with a sterling record and no violent history any jury (except maybe in CA) would acquit. Involuntary Manslaughter---case closed."


Exactly. Someone comes at you trying to take your life, you don't have time to decide whether or not he took his freakin' Prozac that day! Hence, there is no such thing as being overly aggresive with someone trying to kill you.

"if i could not get away from them and was forced, then the answer is simple,
I would take no chance with my life, I love my children & grandchildren to much,
i would  
just make it short & clean.
we over train in kajukenbo for a reason.
we do so as to be ready for as sijo would say what eva
."

Well met, Sigung Harper. I couldn't agree more.

"In regards to this topic, self defense against weapons, there is such a thing as "justifiable homicide".  Although there may be a difference between being a "civilian" and being a "cop" in relation to the use of deadly force, there is also a thing called "self preservation".

If a civilain was walking home, and was confronted with a deadly attack, which he/she defended against, and used deadly force to end the confrontation, is that any different when the victim is an off duty cop walking to his/her car after a shift?

In my opinion, I don't think so because to me an off duty cop would be just another civilian.  So long as you have a fear that great bodily injury or death will be eminent, then the use of deadly force becomes justifiable."


My sentiments exactly. If someone attacks you and makes an attempt on your life, and you respond by ending the conflict in a lethal manner I can't imagine a single jury that won't acquit you. As was previously mentioned several times, people simply value their lives too much and if someone goes nuts enough to try and kill you with a Knife then most here would agree that simply controlling them might be a risk thats not worth taking. Its just self-preservation, not murder.

Offline badsifu

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2003, 12:07:22 AM »
Control can be as simple and careful as a wrist lock, or as damaging as broken legs - it is what you make of it.  The point is, I don't have to kill.  I should have that option available to me, but my training should make it so I shouldn't need to kill.

After I disarm the  attacker, I do my ground attack, cutting the throat before I finish, or beating the person across the head and chest with their own club before I finish.  Is that justifiable homicide?  That is where the tournament promoters and judges see our techniques as over the line of Self-Defense.

I will leave this thread with this story that I grew up on. The story is about my old instructor's father, the late Master Aleju Reyes who is well known in Kaju as well as other martial arts circles.  It was told to me that a fight took place and someone had punched at Master Reyes.  He simply stopped the punch by grabbing the attacker's hand.  The attacker was shocked that he could stop the punch and also at the strength of Master Reyes' hand.  Master Reyes could have easily destroyed anyone - but he chose to be the bigger man.  I would hope all of us would do the same if given the opportunity.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 12:09:16 AM by badsifu »
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Offline kajukenbo Dad

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2003, 01:04:11 AM »
On the street their is only pain if you quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had  to throw that in.............great posts

Offline Pacificshore

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2003, 01:33:59 AM »
BadSifu:

I believe I understand the point you are making in regards to control and the choice to take a life or not in defense of yourself.  In the world of Law Enforcement, there is this thing called the "Use of Force" continuium(sp).  Where it goes something like this: command presence, verbal, physical restraints, pepper spray, impact weapons, lethal force.  

Now depending on the level or assualt upon you, loved ones, or friends will more than likely dictate what level of force you would respond.  If we are talking about a punching/kicking type attack, and you bear upon the attacker all your weapons, then off course the scales of "justice" may become unbalanced because you would have gone beyond what would be considered "reasonable" in the eyes of regular person, if at anytime before you stopped you had neutralized your attacker and knew that he was done.

But, then let's say that I'm 5'4" and 125lbs., and the attacker is some 6'5" 300lb. beast, if I were to bear all my weapons(strikes, kicks) upon him, and it had no effect, and I had no means of escape,  I chose to employ a lethal strike to end the confrontation, can the circumstances then be considered "reasonable"?  I believe so.

When the attack involves any sort of weapons, then I guess the feeling is to not give the attacker any second chances.  As is with all unprovoked attacks, they happen in a matter of seconds, usually not enough time to assess the situation until well after you are half way through the event.

All the scenarios I presented has to be taken with a grain-of-salt, because the totality of the circumstances would come into play, as well as your state of mind.  

One last thing regarding tournaments, they are for fun in my opinion, and it shouldn't matter what the judges think.............win-lose-draw it's all in fun.

Ok, enough of my ramblings :)

Gene R.
Kara-Ho Kempo

Offline Sifu Julian

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Re:Sport or Disipline?
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2003, 03:08:00 AM »
Control can be as simple and careful as a wrist lock, or as damaging as broken legs - it is what you make of it.  The point is, I don't have to kill.  I should have that option available to me, but my training should make it so I shouldn't need to kill.

That is true given the assumption that the attacker COMPLETELY surrenders when you apply the joint lock and does NOT have 3 friends hiding in the bushes waiting to jump on you. That IMHO is an awfully big assumption when talking about your child's life.

Also, if he is wacked on PCP he won't even realize you have broken his leg and will continue to pummel you until you put a stop to it by dropping him PERMENANTLY.

Quote
After I disarm the  attacker, I do my ground attack, cutting the throat before I finish, or beating the person across the head and chest with their own club before I finish.  Is that justifiable homicide?

Again, given the assumption that once you disarm the attacker he completely surrenders or flees, then you are correct. I just hope you don't run into someone who carries a spare knife to use after you take the first one away.

Quote
That is where the tournament promoters and judges see our techniques as over the line of Self-Defense.

Let them believe what they will. America is a free country where you can read the Star in the check-out lane at the supermarket and believe that Elvis was abducted by aliens. I have seen too many TKD black belts get beaten to a pulp because what they trained was unrealistic. Sijo and the Black Belt Society refined the material that was to become Kajukenbo in the fire of battle, on the streets, where people get hurt and die everyday. They trained to keep hammering an opponent while standing, on the ground, and finally with a lethal shot --- because that is what works in the real world.

Now, we in the PC and Litigation world of the 21st century do have to consider those other consequences of our actions. Therefore, I pray everyday that I will never again have to use Kajukenbo in combat. But if/when the time comes I will escalate to the appropriate level to neutralize the threat and de-escalate ASAP once that has happened. In the mean time if he will not de-escalate before I have to use a lethal technique then so be it. Again, he made a bad choice.

On a personal note:  this is not meant as a challenge to you Badsifu. You are 5th Black Belt and therefore out rank me and have had your own experiences with Kajukenbo. I am just presenting the training mindset I have been groomed under for the past 17 years. I would completely agree that we are to "Civilize the Mind, as well as, Make Savage the Body."

I personally study herbology with Prof. Alan Carter and I know many Kajukenbo practitioners who study herbs, accupuncture, massage, etc. to develop an holistic martial art and person. All that said, I have never left the basic premise that when your life is being threatened---there is no morality in the fight. It is simply an act/react response. He initiated the conflict (with a weapon) and I will react in one way or another. Simple logic.

Aloha!

Sifu Julian
Professor Julian Sims
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