Author Topic: why do you go back to white ?  (Read 7948 times)

Offline Baythenee Htwe

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why do you go back to white ?
« on: January 13, 2007, 01:39:16 PM »
Hello,

well i am not sure where to post this but i think General History is a good thread to post...
I am studying N. Kajukenbo Tum Pai Under Si bok Greg Hart for about 2 and half year now.  One day we were talking about the different color of the uniform in Tum Pai.  Blue with black stripe for black belt club, black with white stripe for master club, white with red strip for brown black to 1st degree black belt. then red with white stripe n all green lime color and gold and so forth but once you get to Grandmaster level your uniform become all white ... as if you go around the circle of a ying yang symbol, meaning you have complete understanding to a certain level of the art ... But each color of uniform has its meaning ....well anyways  my question is.... does anyone know why you have gone back to all white when you are at si jo level in tum pai?

Sorry if i made it sound all comfusing ...thank you for your time


BaytheneeHtwe

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 02:42:39 PM »
In traditional kung fu, the belt ranking system was Black, Red, Gold, White.  In the Kajukenbo arts, this was incorporated into the black belt ranking system, where by from 1st-6th dan you have a black belt with red stripes for dans, followed by a gold belt with red accents as a professor (7th and 8th dan), and 9th is red and white.  10th dan (Sijo level), is pure white. 

The Tum Pai style I believe has taken this color scheme and adopted it to their own uses; hence you Sijo level being all white--which only Sijo Emperado can hold.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Vala Au

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 07:08:01 PM »
I'll take a stab at it and say it relates to the Chan (zen) concept of the circular seasons of life:

White - birth, the beginning, knows nothing.

Yellow/orange - Springtime, blossoming, emerging in knowlege.

Purple, Blue, Green - Summer, blooming, increasing in knowledge.

Brn, Black, Red - Fall, immersed in knowledge.

White - Winter, have come full circle and knows that they nothing.  Sort of having a mind of no mind which is the path to enlightenment in Chan.

On a more practical note:

Not sure about Tum Pai, but traditionally in most Kung fu schools every one wears a black sash.  The Sifu usually has a gold or red tassle or trim on his sash to show he is the h.m.i.c.

The black sash has no rank.  The rank is by title (Sidi, Sihing, SiSuk, Sibak, etc.) It is truly to hold up the pants.  Traditional Chinese pants were not tailored to fit.  They were baggy about 3 sizes too big, folded inward at the waist then rolled downward and tied off with the sash.  Very similiar to what you see WHKD people wear today.

White symbolizes death/rebirth.  That's why they wear white at funerals. 

At Shao Lin the novice monks wore a light blue colored clothes, the shifu's a gold robe to tell who's who.

I think only in the last century did some Kung fu schools start giving colored sashes for rank.  Most in the U.S. to have an equivalent structure to compete at tournaments.  Also for commercial reasons as other Asian Arts have belt ranking.



Vala Au

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2007, 02:13:48 AM »
Baythenee,

Can you please conform to the the cafe requirement of placing your true name and affiliation in the signature block.

Otherwise the cafe popo may chop your posts off,  by the knee.

Thanks,

Vala Au

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2007, 04:02:26 PM »
Just to keep it goin.  Coming up I was told never to wash my belt as it washes the knowledge out.  I had also heard the color scheme story that;

We start at white which is innocense.

After some time sweating it turns yellow/orange.

Add some blood from more intense training, it turns purple/blue/green.

As you start to become an old salt, it turns a musty brown.

Eventually it is seasoned to a ripe black.

Probably why Musashi didn't take a bath.

As for pink, one of the best Martial Artist alive, Gene Labell, wears pink just to piss em off.

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2007, 04:49:57 PM »
As an interesting fact on belt colors (direct from GM Dacascos), their was originally no orange belt.  However, at one point, the kenpo/kajukenbo groups active in California received a massive bad dye job that looked orange, and thus the orange belt was formed.  It allowed for another belt (and thus another testing fee), which was in the financial interests of those who received the belts at the time.  In the end, it just stuck.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Vala Au

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2007, 02:38:14 AM »
As an interesting fact on belt colors (direct from GM Dacascos), their was originally no orange belt.  However, at one point, the kenpo/kajukenbo groups active in California received a massive bad dye job that looked orange, and thus the orange belt was formed.  It allowed for another belt (and thus another testing fee), which was in the financial interests of those who received the belts at the time.  In the end, it just stuck.

That makes sense Sifu Jason.  Did GM say what year that was?  When I started in Hard style we didn't have yellow or orange.  The first I heard about an orange belt was from that Tracy Kenpo chain in the early 70's.

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2007, 11:05:59 AM »
Sigung Jason,

I believe the bad dye job was the late 60s or early 70s; right around when WHKD was founded, and GM Dacascos was in California teaching, which would align with Tracy Kenpo's inclusion of the orange belt.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: why do you go back to white ?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2007, 02:38:56 PM »
In traditional kung fu, the belt ranking system was Black, Red, Gold, White.  In the Kajukenbo arts, this was incorporated into the black belt ranking system, where by from 1st-6th dan you have a black belt with red stripes for dans, followed by a gold belt with red accents as a professor (7th and 8th dan), and 9th is red and white.  10th dan (Sijo level), is pure white. 

The Tum Pai style I believe has taken this color scheme and adopted it to their own uses; hence you Sijo level being all white--which only Sijo Emperado can hold.
Just seeking some clarification.  When you say "traditional kung fu" having a Black, Red, Gold and White ranking system, are you speaking of traditional Tum Pai, or traditional gung fu in America or traditional gung fu in general?   I ask because in traditional Chinese gung fu, there were no ranks--belts, or otherwise.  And sashes were used for other means (back support, weapons stowage, etc.)

Anyway, just askin'. 
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana