Author Topic: Girls and Wrestling  (Read 11734 times)

Offline kempomama

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Girls and Wrestling
« on: February 17, 2007, 08:40:27 PM »
Interesting article and video.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/17/nyregion/17wrestle.html

I remember taking Forrest to a wrestling camp a couple years ago and seeing a couple of girls. Rock On!
Sifu Sheryl Baber Evans
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, Kansas

Offline Brandi Ross

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2007, 03:08:20 AM »
We just had league championship today and my school had two girls take first for their weight divisions (girls divisions).  Total, three girls qualified for the state tournament.

Now, I can go backwards and read the article.  THanks for posting it!!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 02:25:55 PM by Brandi Ross »
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TEricksen

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2007, 12:43:46 PM »
Here's a thought from a father who watched his son get beat by a girl two years in a row:  Girls should not be wrestling in the same league with boys.

In the match last year where he got beat, he got behind her, reached around and grabbed a handfull of boob and did the gentlemanly thing and promptly let go.  He went on to let her up a couple of times when he grabbed her rear and a handfull of cooter. 

This year at regionals (he took first at districts), he had the gal down twice and was ahead on points even though he had released holds a couple of times because of grabbing "private" areas.  In the last round, he reached and grabbed a handfull of rear, twice, and promptly let go both times.  She reversed right before the bell, gained two points and won.

In my opinion, the dedicated girls are at a distinct advantage in that they do have the skills needed to compete and they are willing to give it 100% all the time.  The teenage boys that have been raised right, frequently are unable to get past the mental block of grabbing things they've been taught their entire lives not to grab.

I'm proud of my son and how he was a gentleman with these girls, he not once used the excuse that he grabbed and released stating that he just got beat, but everyone saw the real reasons he lost. 

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2007, 02:29:10 PM »
Your son is a gentlemen.  Also the gals know the sport they have got themselves into so........
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2007, 02:52:22 PM »
Given the ball-free nature of person to person combat, I think wrestling accentuates the problem of male vs. female combat.    There will always be a percentage of girls that will exceed their male competition.   The intersex competitions stress the one way socialized protections for women (i.e. You don't hit women) and thus, the two aren't competing under the same guidelines.   Given that male-female matches exist, this sort of competition has made substantial progress since my high school days.   However, given the few girls that participate, the debate seems to be more about making exceptions for a handful of girls than opening the gates for the flood of women that have always wanted to wrestle.    

I have a few videotaped post-fight interviews of male-female fights, and only one fellow uttered some surprising remarks.

Anyway, you ladies in the martial arts have already paved the ground for mixed gender training and endured all of the difficulties along the way.  I always like to say that women actually need self-defense training more than men do, so we should do what we can to include women.






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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2007, 02:56:00 PM »
In the match last year where he got beat, he got behind her, reached around and grabbed a handfull of boob and did the gentlemanly thing and promptly let go.  He went on to let her up a couple of times when he grabbed her rear and a handfull of cooter. 

Your son is a brave pioneer.    While the unwritten rules were stacked against him in this day,  at some point the sport will see that grabbing a guy's butt is the same as grabbing a girl's butt.   
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2007, 02:57:47 PM »
Your son is a gentlemen.  Also the gals know the sport they have got themselves into so........

Prof Bono, you have touched the heart of the matter.  If the guy treats the girl in a manner identical to his conduct with male opponents, has he lost his ranking as a gentlemen ?
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2007, 03:08:34 PM »
I think as long as he didn't do it with bad intent he is still a gentlemen.  I believe rules should be equal and fair   Hopefully the decency of humans still prevails..
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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2007, 03:32:07 PM »
This year, females in wrestling in our area have decreased substantially due to this being the first year for an all womens wrestling league in high school sports.  The two girls allowed to wrestle in the guys league this year were the two state placers from last year.  Even at that, my son only wrestled one girl last year, and the gal this year at regionals was his first and only mixed gender match. 

We talked at length after last years match, and when he found out he'd be wrestling a female at this years regionals, we again had some long conversations about the mental aspects of wrestling a female.  He went into the match fully prepared to view the gal as just another opponent, and he left the mat pretty much feeling that he had accomplished that goal.  He really didn't realize how many times he "flinched" and "repositioned" his hands. 

It's easy for us guys to talk the game about taking out a female opponent, but we all know what happens when we spar, grapple, etc. with the gals that come through our schools.

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2007, 03:52:59 PM »
I'm very curious in understanding this topic, not only the issues during the bout itself but also public perception, both among supporting spectators and the public at large.   Let's hash out the challenges just so we know what they are.  Any takers ?  I'd like to include the perspective of the women of Kaju.

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juribe

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2007, 04:31:49 PM »
I was hesitant to post as I'm inexperienced compared others on the Cafe. All I can provide is my own personal experience. Grappling is part of our regular curriculum. Additionally, I train an 1-2 extra hours per week one-on-one, with either my male instructor or other men at our school.
 
During class, I grapple with adult and teenage males 90% of the time because of the female/male ratio at our school. Some boys and men are uncomfortable grappling women, regardless of the body parts that happen to be touching, but many are not. It should be said that many women are uncomfortable grappling as well, even with other women, I think because of the extremely close contact required.
 
One 13-year old boy who trains in our adult class has no problem training with girls (or women, including me). It's not because he's not being "raised right"--I can vouch that he's a great kid.  But he has been grappling females from day of 1 of his training, 2-3 years ago.
 
I lose frequently (how about "almost always"!) to the men but not by submissions related to grabbing breasts other "private areas." The experienced male students are in control of their positions and submission moves. I am talking about Jiu-jitsu and not wrestling, so it may be that the positions and holds I'm familiar with are different than those in wrestling.
 
For Toby's son, competing with females could simply be a personal challenge to overcome, both psychologically and technique-wise. Does he normally train with females? If not and the experience was new to him in a tournament, I can understand why he would feel uncomfortable.
 
Toby says that the men "all know what happens" when they spar, etc., with women but that has not been my experience with grappling. Although men who are conditioned not to hit girls may have a hard time going full out in sparring, they also don't want to be beat by a girl.

I can't remember any time when a man in class has let me submit him or win the match unless it's during a teaching session. I think it's because you can win the match or points without really hurting your opponent. It's less about power and hurting the other person, than getting the right setup or technique.
 
I have observed and grappled with many "gentlemen" who whip my butt without ever making unnecessary and/or inappropriate contact or grabs.

As Gints implies, grappling is important for women's self defense if only to help women realize that just because you're on the ground with someone on top of you, it doesn't mean it's over for you.

Gints, I hope this helps bring at least one woman's perspective to the discussion.

edited for a formatting typo.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 04:33:57 PM by J. Uribe »

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2007, 05:04:47 PM »
I'll throw in a few more thoughts/issues with this topic:  My son, during his first year of wrestling was frequently paired up with a gal because of his weight (He's a little guy).  She had a couple of years of experience on him, but he had no problem controlling her, and he never "let her win".  Regarding the match last year, the match this year, and the prior girls that he wrestled, he never let any of them win.  With the exception of the gal last year and the gal this year, none of the others had the skills to even begin to be a challenge, so he never had to resort to techniques that would cause "uncomfortable" problems.  If he grabbed chest, he'd simply move his hand and work from there.  Where the problem comes in is when the gal has the skills to be a top competitor, and something as simple as moving a hand, even slightly, gives an advantage to the female, where if it had been a guy, the hand move never would have happened.

As for public opinion:  Sitting in the stands and listening to parents comment has been interesting.  Opinion seems to be heavily weighted toward the "gentleman is good" crowd, but there are a few that would see the hand move and they would make comments like "I'd have used it for a handle" or "I'd grab her like a six pack", etc. etc.  There seems to be almost universal agreement that the gals and guys should not be wrestling together, hence, I'd guess, the reason behind the formation of the girls only league.

J.Uribe:  My comment "We all know what happens" can really only be completely understood from a guys perspective, and I hope that you don't take issue with it:  I mean no disrespect.   When the great majority of guys pair up with a gal, there is a switch inside our heads, and we change gears.  There are very few gals that can go toe-to-toe with a guy of equal size and ability, and those few females do, in time, earn a respect and the guys are able to go much harder with them..... It is, however, a learned trait that is individualized for each female.  An unknown female of equal or greater skill will always have the initial advantage with most guys. 

All that said, the guy that wrestled the gal who beat my son in the next round didn't give an inch and he slammed her.  He, evidently, has gotten past the issue, and many around made comments to the effect that "she just wasn't good enough" and "good for him".  It's a strange twist of perception.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2007, 06:48:06 PM »
Most of you know that my school is heavily into grappling.   Men and women train the same, start the same have the same type of matches.  It has never been a issue with touching the wrong place.  Since it is a family type of atmosphere, it is like grappling with your sister.  We have been grappling with the gals close to 15 yrs now and have never had a problem.  Also being used to going with heavier stronger opponents has made the gals that much better....
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2007, 06:52:29 PM »
Some good discussion. I for one like to spar women as much as men, I rather think more of a training partner than of what gender they are. But there certainly are comfort zones and acting appropriately, I have acted differently towards different partners, at times probably having to do with gender as well as other factors.

Coming from some Aikido background, I rarely ever grab anything but choose to strike or cut, only grabbing to finish strongly. I think this helps for me to avoid being in compromising positions. Even so, there have been times... I remember one woman telling me that she usually can tell if the touching was inappropriate, the touching I did was not done with inappropriate intentions she said so she was okay with it.

Competition would be another matter. Sparring can have more controls over comfort zones but competition is mostly to win. I suppose I would have to plan a whole strategy of what positions and techniques to focus on perfecting for the matches so as to avoid internal conflicts.

Considering...

1. Experience
2. Fighting Spirit
3. Training

What we are talking about with what is appropriate and what is not right has a lot to do with Fighting Spirit. If we are just in it to win we care less about what we touch and more about what it takes to come up on top within the rules. However, if we have any internal conflicts because we do not feel something is the right thing to do on the inside, that can affect our spirit.

I don't know the answer, but I would say that ultimately we are dealing with what one is willing to do... so this has to do with internal conflicts and fighting spirit.

Just my humble opinion.
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Offline supertim2003

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Re: Girls and Wrestling
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2007, 07:04:40 PM »
I think there is something to be said for wrestling/sparring with a gal that you know (have trained with for some time) vs. one you have never met (such as an invitational with other schools).  I have a somewhat old fashion view on this and it is simply this....In public schools girls should NOT be wrestling with the boys.  I don't understand why out all of the sports that boys and girls compete in, this is the one they decide to integrate.  I do not intend to offend anyone (especially the ladies) and I have no problem with girls wrestling with each other, but they don't do this with any other sport that I know of.  I appreciate the fact that Mr. Ericksen son has been such a gentleman, and I applaud the fact that he didn't make excuses for the loss, but thats a big disadvantage for a young man and I am sure most of the girls would prefer to wrestle with other girls.  Just my .02 worth.
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