Author Topic: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?  (Read 27928 times)

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2007, 09:43:19 AM »
I misunderstood your original post.  Good wine.  Or maybe not enough. 

I don't think I used the word "gimmick."  Perhaps you can look back at all of my posts over the past several years and see where I have used the statement so you can quote me on that as well.

:)
Dan Tyrrell

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2007, 10:13:57 AM »
Maybe we should all take a survey of our students and ask why they are there and what are their goals....I always do this........
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2007, 10:38:41 AM »
I misunderstood your original post.  Good wine.  Or maybe not enough. 

I don't think I used the word "gimmick."  Perhaps you can look back at all of my posts over the past several years and see where I have used the statement so you can quote me on that as well.

:)

Sorry, I took the liberty of paraphrasing your post:  Was my use of the word gimmick incorrect?

Your deleted post did not appear to be a misunderstanding as you addressed my post quite clearly, intentionally explaining all of the elements of your advertisement, that when redefined, attempted to back up your stance that martial arts is "just about fighting, war and violence," while intentionally ignoring the "calms the mind, and balances the spirit" section.






TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2007, 10:57:31 AM »
Maybe we should all take a survey of our students and ask why they are there and what are their goals....I always do this........

I am of the belief that the true or deeper meaning of martial arts is a completely individual perception that changes and grows over time, and is or can be separate from why a person trains.

Am I making any sense?


Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2007, 11:04:32 AM »
Gimmick defined by the masses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimmick

I originally read your post to imply that you were still discussing the topic.  I replied to the topic based on that interpretation.  After my second read, I realized that you have given up the original assault on the topic.  You can't win the argument, so you instead decided to take action against the proponent.  If you can somehow discredit the proponent (which you can't btw,) then you win by default.  I adjusted my responses accordingly.  Regardless, I will continue to play along because it is fun.

You contend that by putting "just" into the equation that it somehow changes.  I disagree.  Not only will I say that Martial Arts is JUST about fighting, war, and violence, but I will contend that EVERYTHING is JUST about those things.  Everything from love, family, work, reproduction, and social ladders are not only a fight, but a war.  You can disagree all you like, but it just means that you are ignoring the animal within you.  But please disagree, by fighting against me you are only proving my point.

Off to the gym to improve the warrior ;)
Dan Tyrrell

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2007, 11:07:51 AM »
Still a survey would give a clue what the students are actually thinking...
Though it may seem that way at times some of those would not apply to family, my business, and love..
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2007, 11:41:23 AM »
Gimmick defined by the masses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimmick

I originally read your post to imply that you were still discussing the topic.  I replied to the topic based on that interpretation.  After my second read, I realized that you have given up the original assault on the topic.  You can't win the argument, so you instead decided to take action against the proponent.  If you can somehow discredit the proponent (which you can't btw,) then you win by default.  I adjusted my responses accordingly.  Regardless, I will continue to play along because it is fun.

You contend that by putting "just" into the equation that it somehow changes.  I disagree.  Not only will I say that Martial Arts is JUST about fighting, war, and violence, but I will contend that EVERYTHING is JUST about those things.  Everything from love, family, work, reproduction, and social ladders are not only a fight, but a war.  You can disagree all you like, but it just means that you are ignoring the animal within you.  But please disagree, by fighting against me you are only proving my point.

Off to the gym to improve the warrior ;)

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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
gim¬?mick      /ˈgɪmɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gim-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
‚Äìnoun 1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal. 
2. a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal: An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere. 
3. a hidden mechanical device by which a magician works a trick or a gambler controls a game of chance. 
4. Electronics Informal. a capacitor formed by intertwining two insulated wires. 
‚Äìverb (used with object) 5. to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. (often fol. by up): to gimmick up a sports car with chrome and racing stripes. 
‚Äìverb (used without object) 6. to resort to gimmickry, esp. habitually. 

In your opinion, was I incorrect in my use of the word "gimmick"?


badsifu,

Interesting that you view this thread as an argument that can be won or lost:  I do not.

If you re-read my responses, in context, it is clear that my position is one of individual perception, and I simply disagree with one of your narrowly stated definitions of martial arts.............. I agree with the one you have posted on your website which you now state is nothing more than an advertising gimmick.






Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2007, 12:18:30 PM »
Still a survey would give a clue what the students are actually thinking...
Though it may seem that way at times some of those would not apply to family, my business, and love..


That is a good idea. I think Sigung Mateo, my instructor, always asks what someone wants to get out of training before anyone joins the school. In fact, I think people are more than willing to volunteer that information to a point if you show interest in knowing.

I know part of the reason I was in martial arts was to meet women. I met my wife in martial arts. Now knowing how marriage can be just about fighting, war, and violence... ouch!!! I had to add that last comment as a pre-emptive strike to all you hecklers in the world.

The fact I fell in love with someone was independent of the fact I was in love with martial arts training. 

Maybe we should all take a survey of our students and ask why they are there and what are their goals....I always do this........

I am of the belief that the true or deeper meaning of martial arts is a completely individual perception that changes and grows over time, and is or can be separate from why a person trains.

Am I making any sense?


You make sense, but there is a difference in having your own beliefs and forcing those beliefs upon someone else. If we train together, regardless of rank, I do not want to be your leader or your follower, I wish only to walk at your side. There may be times when I must lead, but if I lead, I do not expect you to follow, and conversely if I follow I do not expect you to lead.

Detach from preconceived ideals and expectations. It is a fighting mind without attachment.

There are definitely benefits and meaning in martial arts that are deeper than what is seen on the surface. It is a very complex subject. It is not however, just relative to one's own perceptions, there are fundamental principles that stay true.

These principles, whether you agree or don't, but I will state that these principles are built from fighting (fighting, war, violence). If there is a deeper meaning to martial arts, it is in the discovery and understanding of these principles. The path leads somewhere but like an arrow in flight, the path to the target is not for certain.

There are those that believe there is a danger if one is caught in what people call the seller's mind or relative mind. An example of this mind is if you are a sales person of gatorade. You will speak of the benefits of the sports drink, how it is better than water because it has what the working body craves, electrolytes. Maybe you are a great sale person and soon you have everyone drinking gatorade instead of water. Now too much of anything, even if it is something good, ends up not good. Those medical professionals that know sports medicine will tell you that there are times when water is the best for you to drink, and there are recommended times when you need something more like gatorade.

The difference is the sale person is selling gatorade, the medical professional is not selling water or gatorade. The sales person can have what is called a relative mind. When selling it is okay to push gatorade on the world, but when buying it, they want to be healthy and drink water when it is better to drink water instead of gatorade. How can the sales person live with a dual personality... it is a contradiction.

Martial arts is fully of contradictions that can lead to a person believing in a relative mind. I hear it all the time, someone will seem peaceful but they will come out and say that if they or their loved ones are in danger they will kill whoever threatens them. Rather tried by twelve than carried by six.

However, when the person that says such things has never been in a real fight or in some way walked the walk, then when these people believe that if the situation warrants then they can kill but otherwise they live in peace, it becomes like they believe they can become different people for different situations... the relative mind.

They believe they can kill if necessary but have little or no experience in fighting and war. What might really happen is that when the poop hits the fan they freeze up or hesitate because their mind is in conflict with what they believe in. They see another human being and they can't pull the trigger. Now I will be the first to say that life is precious and not pulling the trigger can be a good thing if it saves the lives and spares unnecessary bloodshed.

The bottom line here is control under chaos. If you consciously choose not to pull the trigger, that is your control, if however your mind thinks one thing and your body does something different, that is conflict, loss of control.

Living in a relative mind can be the root of this conflict. Training in violence but living in peace, is not that a contradiction? Or training in nothing but pacifism and finding you have to hurt someone in real world... is not that also a contradiction?

The answer is perhaps in the belief that there is no relative mind, you are always the same person in war and peace.

There is no relative mind, you are who you are and it does not matter the context. You hopefully choose your actions to be appropriate, you have your own intentions, but you are always you.

If you have compassion, and most do, when it comes to maiming or killing another, it may be necessary, but it pains you to do so. You lose something of yourself. Part of you dies with all you hurt.

Perhaps no one has studied more about the affects of the relative mind in combat zones than the military. You are not one person in war and a different person in peace. A gunner is not trained to kill people, they are trained to shoot "blips on the radar" because if they actually had to deal with killing other fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, children... the loss could be unbearable. Soldiers on the front lines have to accept the animal within to survive, then they have to deal with questions about who they are, who they really are on the inside... this is a deeper personal meaning coming from fighting and putting your life and the lives of others on the line.

You can SELL martial arts, but don't lose who you are. It is not relative. Whether it is "just" about fighting, war, and violence or if there is more to it than that. The "just" is not to define a narrow definition, it is to deal with the loss, to make it bearable because the reality of it is that one day, despite all attempts to avoid, it can happen that you must use it to maim or kill.

This is JUST a post.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 12:29:22 PM by Wado »
W. Yamauchi
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TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2007, 01:05:01 PM »
Wado,

Thank you for taking the time to lay out a well explained post.  :)

Is it possible to truly force a belief on someone else? I don't think so.

While I do not disagree with your broad definition of the word "just" in the statement "martial arts is just about fighting, war and violence," I don't believe that it was the definition intended by the originator of this thread.  Any of us can extrapolate the meanings of the words fighting, war and violence to include every potential benefit of martial arts and life in general (such as what badsifu has done), but again, is that really helping the originator of this topic?

How do you interpret this statement under the definition of "relative mind:"  "Training in violence in order to live in peace, is not a contradiction."

Thank You For Your Time,
Toby Ericksen

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2007, 01:17:51 PM »
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
gim¬?mick      /ˈgɪmɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gim-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
‚Äìnoun 1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal. 
2. a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal: An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere. 
3. a hidden mechanical device by which a magician works a trick or a gambler controls a game of chance. 
4. Electronics Informal. a capacitor formed by intertwining two insulated wires. 
‚Äìverb (used with object) 5. to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. (often fol. by up): to gimmick up a sports car with chrome and racing stripes. 
‚Äìverb (used without object) 6. to resort to gimmickry, esp. habitually. 

In your opinion, was I incorrect in my use of the word "gimmick"?


badsifu,

If you re-read my responses, in context, it is clear that my position is one of individual perception, and I simply disagree with one of your narrowly stated definitions of martial arts.............. I agree with the one you have posted on your website which you now state is nothing more than an advertising gimmick.


You agree with the definition on my website because it is supposed to make you agree.  I have stated this before.  Anyone could look at the broad brush and paint themselves a picture that works for them.  As Gints pointed out, the interpretation of what I wrote could be very ambiguous.  Since it worked on you, if it makes you feel better to call it a gimmick, then I'll proudly accept the rhetoric.  Then we can get back to the flesh of the debate instead of trying to dissolve into tangents that try to bring more perceived value to one's argument.

I have read your responses and I contend that it is you that have the narrow interpretation.  If all things are fighting, war, and violence, then that definition encompasses everything.  However, you want to add things into that definition that are not within the scope.  More specifically, not within the scope of every martial artist.  It may help to look at other avenues of activity.  Boxing and Wrestling for example.  What are you doing in those?  Fighting.  What are they about?  Fighting.  You can say that you become more disciplined or more confident, etc, but they are just about fighting.  Now if you put that into the context of martial arts, how does this pertain to the warrior?  It pertains because when we come to the moment, there is nothing but fighting.  You can say that it isn't "just" fighting.  You can say that is achieved is a matter of "personal perception."  If you are learning a martial art, you are learning how to fight (or at least you should be.)  You can add things into that definition, but that makes it more narrow.  Example of broad:  See the U.S. Constitution.

Let's take your argument down a slippery path and see where we end up.  For this instance I will say that you are correct and that yes, I am narrow minded in our view of what Martial Arts is.  What then does it include?  So we have fighting - hopefully.  There is some confidence building.  Let's not forget about discipline.  We have respect for others.  Next we include some spirituality from training.  What else?  Let's create a definition that includes everything and everyone because we all know that my definition, and the definition agreed on by many, is far too narrow.  Now in order to be a martial artist, we can't "JUST" have fighting.  That would be stellar!

Quote
Interesting that you view this thread as an argument that can be won or lost:  I do not.

Anything can be won or lost.  This argument is no different. 
Dan Tyrrell

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2007, 01:43:50 PM »
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
gim¬?mick      /ˈgɪmɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gim-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
‚Äìnoun 1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal. 
2. a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal: An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere. 
3. a hidden mechanical device by which a magician works a trick or a gambler controls a game of chance. 
4. Electronics Informal. a capacitor formed by intertwining two insulated wires. 
‚Äìverb (used with object) 5. to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. (often fol. by up): to gimmick up a sports car with chrome and racing stripes. 
‚Äìverb (used without object) 6. to resort to gimmickry, esp. habitually. 

In your opinion, was I incorrect in my use of the word "gimmick"?


badsifu,

If you re-read my responses, in context, it is clear that my position is one of individual perception, and I simply disagree with one of your narrowly stated definitions of martial arts.............. I agree with the one you have posted on your website which you now state is nothing more than an advertising gimmick.


You agree with the definition on my website because it is supposed to make you agree.  I have stated this before.  Anyone could look at the broad brush and paint themselves a picture that works for them.  As Gints pointed out, the interpretation of what I wrote could be very ambiguous.  Since it worked on you, if it makes you feel better to call it a gimmick, then I'll proudly accept the rhetoric.  Then we can get back to the flesh of the debate instead of trying to dissolve into tangents that try to bring more perceived value to one's argument.

I have read your responses and I contend that it is you that have the narrow interpretation.  If all things are fighting, war, and violence, then that definition encompasses everything.  However, you want to add things into that definition that are not within the scope.  More specifically, not within the scope of every martial artist.  It may help to look at other avenues of activity.  Boxing and Wrestling for example.  What are you doing in those?  Fighting.  What are they about?  Fighting.  You can say that you become more disciplined or more confident, etc, but they are just about fighting.  Now if you put that into the context of martial arts, how does this pertain to the warrior?  It pertains because when we come to the moment, there is nothing but fighting.  You can say that it isn't "just" fighting.  You can say that is achieved is a matter of "personal perception."  If you are learning a martial art, you are learning how to fight (or at least you should be.)  You can add things into that definition, but that makes it more narrow.  Example of broad:  See the U.S. Constitution.

Let's take your argument down a slippery path and see where we end up.  For this instance I will say that you are correct and that yes, I am narrow minded in our view of what Martial Arts is.  What then does it include?  So we have fighting - hopefully.  There is some confidence building.  Let's not forget about discipline.  We have respect for others.  Next we include some spirituality from training.  What else?  Let's create a definition that includes everything and everyone because we all know that my definition, and the definition agreed on by many, is far too narrow.  Now in order to be a martial artist, we can't "JUST" have fighting.  That would be stellar!

Quote
Interesting that you view this thread as an argument that can be won or lost:  I do not.

Anything can be won or lost.  This argument is no different. 
The best definition of the true meaning of martial arts that I have heard yet is, "Martial arts is about....... self-improvement."

I disagree with the statement that all things are about fighting, as it is much too EDIT (narrow) by your own explanation.

I would agree with the statement that all things are about life.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 01:47:35 PM by TEricksen »

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2007, 01:48:59 PM »
No problem Toby. I never really disagreed with what you had to say. But I did have to think hard about this whole topic and then the proverbial firehose of words came out...  :P

The first part is defining what martial arts is. I say that it is defined by the fundamental principles that make it work. The problem is that this definition is a catch 22. In other words, to understand these principles, you have to train in martial arts or have similar life experiences all revolving around JUST fighting, war, and voilence. It eventually leads to some very broad definition like it is about fighting AND not fighting, war AND peace, violence AND pacifism... it sooner or later all roads lead to Martial Arts is about EVERYTHING.

Going back to the fighting principles... that is what it is about. One can gain insights in themselves, develop character, fitness, health, social interaction and all other benefits... but these are benefits, e.g. selling points for training... they are not the definition of what it is about.

Wado,

Thank you for taking the time to lay out a well explained post.  :)

Is it possible to truly force a belief on someone else? I don't think so.

While I do not disagree with your broad definition of the word "just" in the statement "martial arts is just about fighting, war and violence," I don't believe that it was the definition intended by the originator of this thread.  Any of us can extrapolate the meanings of the words fighting, war and violence to include every potential benefit of martial arts and life in general (such as what badsifu has done), but again, is that really helping the originator of this topic?

How do you interpret this statement under the definition of "relative mind:"  "Training in violence in order to live in peace, is not a contradiction."

Thank You For Your Time,
Toby Ericksen

In Buddism I believe that it is your intentions, not actions, that decide if you are a good person or not. That may not be enough to decide the punishment of a criminal in a court of law, as there are definitely consequences for actions and consequences for lack of action or negligence. It is a complex formula with many factors and variables... it can seem very relative to perceptions.

The relative mind is just as complex a subject as should you be held ultimately accountable for your actions or your intentions.

Quote
How do you interpret this statement under the definition of "relative mind:"  "Training in violence in order to live in peace, is not a contradiction."

I would say that the relative mind dwells around the theory that we are multiple personalities free to act based on the situation. In a relative mind, one can train in war (dojo) and be one person... a violent person ... but there is a belief that in real world you now become someone else, a peaceful person.

The reality is that multiple personalities is a sign of insanity or at least the thought of which brings distrust from others. Not to mention internal conflicts in not knowing who you really are or what you will are capable of doing.

The contradiction with the relative mind is that the question comes up, "how can you ever justify violence?" If you say you can NEVER justify violence but you train in martial arts... that will seem a contradiction.

Someone thinking in a relative mind, say a potential love interest, when judging their martial artist boyfriend might think this way... how can this martial artist train in violence and be a good person who avoids violence in the real world? This martial artist must be just pretending to be a good person. Obviously they have some other, meaner side that they are just hiding from me. They maybe think he is a bad asp on the inside and that turns them on...  :P ... or maybe the opposite that they think he is violent on the inside and that he might some be a danger to them and they fear being with him. They will probably also think that the world misunderstands him, and try to get to the real him...  ;D

The relative mind is the mind of a pretender -- one who sees contradiction and rationalizes it in some way.

When you say "Training in violence in order to live in peace, is not a contradiction" depends on if you look at the statement with a relative mind or not. If you look at it with a relative mind then you will try to rationalize the words to make it work for you, to prove your point. It becomes all relative to your point of view. Your situation justifies the conclusions you already have come to.

However, there is another way to look at it. Look at the underlying principles behind the statement. This creates a context for which apply the statement to. For instance, if you have a context that those that have experienced violence learn to appreciate peace, then you can search for the principles of why that might be true. For me there are many fighting principles that apply, for instance, the principle that intuitive or instinctive actions are stronger than trained responses. I can give you this principle... but you have to find how to interpret and understand it though your own path in life so that it is useful to you.

My hint, IMHO, is that in experience of violence, that part of oneself that is instinctive comes out. It is part of who you are, it can be trained but it must be accepted first. Now understand that this is the same for almost everyone, it becomes a truth. It will bring pain, it will hurt, and hopefully this will bring compassion. Compassion is what brings you peace. (Edit: It is compassion that will bring you peace, but in the martial way, it is compassion WITH the ability to back it up with violence that brings peace).

« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 02:10:40 PM by Wado »
W. Yamauchi
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Seattle, Washington

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2007, 01:56:15 PM »
Quote
I would agree with the statement that all things are about life.


Do we reproduce to fight or fight to reproduce?  The answer is the same.  And we still move further away from your concept that Martial Arts must include these other things.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2007, 02:06:18 PM »
Quote
I would agree with the statement that all things are about life.


Do we reproduce to fight or fight to reproduce?  The answer is the same.  And we still move further away from your concept that Martial Arts must include these other things.

Good one.

I would question everyone also... Is martial arts defined by the benefits we seek from it, or is it defined by the fighting principles that make everything work?
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2007, 02:26:25 PM »
He is quoting from a page from my website. 
...

"Hey, Dan is full of cr@p!  He is saying one thing on Kajucafe and another on his website."  If I got you to think that, then I guess the whole article worked on you too.

No problem, Sigung Dan.  This forum offers more privacy for developing thoughts among like-minded Kaju people, and it's comforting to read your clear-minded messages on this forum.    I can certainly understand the need for the difference between between your personal training philosophy and your public presentation.    Other 1st world countries (Japan, Germany) don't have trouble understanding martial arts.  Perhaps that is simply due to our American combination of geographical isolation with 1st world economics.  




« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 02:49:59 PM by Gints Klimanis »
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