Author Topic: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?  (Read 27930 times)

Offline erickm

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Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« on: February 22, 2007, 03:29:56 AM »
I have many friends who only see martial arts as just fighting, war, and violence.  This pains me to hear my friends say those kinds of things about it because I know that in a deeper level, martial arts teaches just the opposite of that.  I was just wondering on anyone's thoughts on how I can explain to people the true meaning of martial arts... and was also curious to see everyone's view on the "true meaning" of martial arts in general.  Mahalo!!!

With respect to all,

Erick
"So many people look for the way to win, but not accept the way to lose.  To accept defeat, to learn to die is to be liberated from it...  Empty your ambitious mind, and learn the art of dying."

- Bruce Lee

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Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 10:11:01 AM »
Your friend is right.

I have many friends who only see martial arts as just fighting, war, and violence.  This pains me to hear my friends say those kinds of things about it because I know that in a deeper level, martial arts teaches just the opposite of that.  I was just wondering on anyone's thoughts on how I can explain to people the true meaning of martial arts... and was also curious to see everyone's view on the "true meaning" of martial arts in general.  Mahalo!!!

With respect to all,

Erick
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Menwinn Morales

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 10:17:16 AM »
I have many friends who only see martial arts as just fighting, war, and violence.  This pains me to hear my friends say those kinds of things about it because I know that in a deeper level, martial arts teaches just the opposite of that.  I was just wondering on anyone's thoughts on how I can explain to people the true meaning of martial arts... and was also curious to see everyone's view on the "true meaning" of martial arts in general.  Mahalo!!!

With respect to all,

Erick

Hey Erick,
This post is an interesting one because each individual must look inside themselves for their own answers. Every one has their own meaning of what martial arts is. To quote my teacher "some people practice martial arts and some are martial artist". I take that some people do martial arts for hobby or sport and some a way of life. I don't believe that there is a right or wrong, I believe that each person must find their purpose and meaning and whatever makes them better to embrace that. Each person's journey depends on what they determine is a must for them to practice and how. For me martial arts isn't something you just turn on or off. It's a lifestyle you embrace and practice. Strive to become better physically, mentally, and spiritually. Through training we condition our bodies to take shots and to deliver them, we train our minds on the expected and unexpected and how to elevate ones mentality to each situation you may or may not encounter, and spiritually we hope to awaken that spark or fire within to enhance your training and growth. We hope to remain humble in our efforts because no one knows it all or has the right or wrong answers, just ask yourself what you know and whats your answers or questions.

 
Sifu Menwinn Morales, 5th degree
Rapacon's Martial Arts, Vallejo, Ca.

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 11:57:46 AM »
I have many friends who only see martial arts as just fighting, war, and violence.  This pains me to hear my friends say those kinds of things about it because I know that in a deeper level, martial arts teaches just the opposite of that.  I was just wondering on anyone's thoughts on how I can explain to people the true meaning of martial arts... and was also curious to see everyone's view on the "true meaning" of martial arts in general.  Mahalo!!!

With respect to all,

Erick

Meaning of Martial arts?  Fall down seven times, get up eight.

Any philosophy applied to a deeper meaning comes from the above.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 04:28:52 PM »
Every now and then, you get a taste of what the rest of the world thinks of our niche.    Here is one of my favorites:

National Public Radio (NPR)
Letters: Fight Club, Sounds of Saturn  by Scott Simon
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4788295

Weekend Edition - Saturday, August 6, 2005 ¬? Scott Simon reaches into the mailbag to
read listeners' letters. Topics include criticism for a recent "fight club" piece and
reaction to the sounds of Saturn.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 12:21:34 AM by Gints Klimanis »
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

LOYALONEHK

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 04:51:46 PM »
Main Entry: mar¬?tial
Pronunciation: 'm?§r-sh&l

1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE

Web definition:
Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.

link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts

Like Sigung Dan said,
I think your friend is right.

Sorry, but the rest is just other stuff.  It comes down to knowing your Intent.
Yes, there are a lot of side benefits, depending on the teacher(s).  It comes down to the individual and your desires.

 ;) 

Offline erickm

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 05:41:07 PM »
hmmm... by reading everyone's opinions... i have to agree now that i guess my friend is right after all in a lot of ways.  i like how it was said that there is no right and wrong.  i guess everyone's definition of the martial arts varies from person to person.  thanks to all for the great and humble opinions.  and of course, more are welcome to put in their two cents!  mahalo.

Erick
"So many people look for the way to win, but not accept the way to lose.  To accept defeat, to learn to die is to be liberated from it...  Empty your ambitious mind, and learn the art of dying."

- Bruce Lee

--- Erick Mijares ---
--- Kajukenbo (Hawaii) ---
--- 3rd Degree ---

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2007, 06:08:39 PM »
I'm going to go on record disagreeing with "the friends".

In my opinion, martial arts training being as individualized as religion, the great majority of practitioners train for many reasons besides "fighting, war, and violence."  Again, I think your friends are incorrect in their assumption.

List a few reasons besides "fighting, war, and violence," Ok:

Exercise
Self Discipline
Friendship
Overcoming Fears (One example would be fear reaction causing fight or flight response)
Self Confidence (see Overcoming Fears)
I could go on an on.

We are all perfectly capable of defending ourselves on some level, and the odds of the majority of martial artists ever using their skills in a life and death self defense situation are slim at best.

I'm going to assume that your friends are not martial artists, and if your friends actually trained, I think their opinion of "martial arts" would drastically change.

EDIT:  Want to change opinion?  Get them involved!

EDIT2:  Recognizing and honoring ones opinion, by giving credibility to an opinion based on ignorance, is tantamount to agreeing with that opinion.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 06:30:34 PM by TEricksen »

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2007, 06:44:26 PM »
hmmm... by reading everyone's opinions... i have to agree now that i guess my friend is right after all in a lot of ways.  i like how it was said that there is no right and wrong.  i guess everyone's definition of the martial arts varies from person to person.  thanks to all for the great and humble opinions.  and of course, more are welcome to put in their two cents!  mahalo.

Erick

Erick, what you might be getting at or have already figured out from the various humble and good posts in this thread is that a Philosophy (what you believe) is separate from martial arts training.

If I may be so bold, what people are saying is let your philosophy evolve from your experience and sincere training in martial arts. This allows for your philosophy to be an "educated philosophy."

If, on the other hand, you come into martial arts with preconceptions of what it is all about, it is very likely that your beliefs are based mostly on what other people tell you or what you have read or seen second hand. You may find that yourself frustrated and at a loss, in such a case... you may be in for a very rude awakening.

Your friends may be right about the definition of what martial arts is, but even if they share the same definition as badsifu, for example, it is not the same thing. Badsifu has put the blood into training, so such a definition, IMHO, from badsifu is an educated philosophy and is backed up with heart. Your friends maybe haven't trained long or at all, no matter if they are right or wrong, their philosophy is an uneducated one... there is no way to know if there is heart in it.

I hope you don't mind I used you badsifu in the example, but I know enough that I could use you as having an educated philosophy.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 10:39:17 PM »
Here's the transcript of the radio story for those unable to listen to the audio file.

There were many letters about last week's story by Nick Miroff about fight clubs in Silicon Valley.

David Austin from Marleton, New Jersey wrote :

"With all the violence in the world right now, the wars, the genocides, the rampant killing in the streets of America, what could possibly motivate NPR to run a story like this.  Wow.   How insightful. An in-depth look at a bunch of obviously self-absorbed, self-loathing, stuck-at-age-thirteen knuckleheads pounding the bejesus out of each other for the entertainment for an obviously deranged older pervert, the one who supplies his garage.  There was absolutely no redeeming value to this story."

Ted Gilly from North Bennington, Vermont wrote:

"The idea apparently accepted as normal by the participants that beating one another with fists and sticks is a legitimate means of self-expression is about as far from the reality of an authentic expression of manhood as can be imagined.  But what was more disturbing is that I didn't find the report surprising.  After all, in a country where the young men increasingly resemble a gang of bikers, what could be more normal than
formalized mayhem?  One can only imagine what values such men will pass onto their sons."



"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 11:49:43 PM »
"The idea apparently accepted as normal by the participants that beating one another with fists and sticks is a legitimate means of self-expression is about as far from the reality of an authentic expression of manhood as can be imagined."

And we live in a society where nudity is not allowed on television (unless it is some tribe in Africa or South America) and foul language is also cast down (unless it is the Simpsons,) but violence is prefectly fine to put in everything from daytime TV to CARTOONS.   Gosh.  Who is the real enemy?  We should really rally against people like Gints who fight eachother with baking pans in their garage because that is the REAL root of evil!  I'd put in some gratuitous swearing here but the filter would just mock me.  Instead, I will resort to ripping out my own hair.

Animals fight.  Fish fight.  Deer fight.  Lions fight.  We are animals.  Or at least we were last time I checked.  The fight could be over food.  The fight could be over pro-creation rights.  The fight could be over social dominance within a group.  The fight could be that the winner gets to eat the loser.  You can choose not to fight.  You can do this not because YOU have earned the right to choose, but that people before you have created a rule that said being an animal is bad and we will not fight like the animals.

Martial Arts is about fighitng.  You can fluff a bunch of other stuff on it and say discipline, control, respect, blah blah blah.  That all comes from the training, ability, and the fear of kicking okole or getting your okole kicked.  WE ARE VIOLENT.  WE ARE ANIMAL.  EMBRACE THAT.  When you ignore that, you ignore a part of you that is animal and human at the same time.  Don't agree?  Walk into a bar sometime.  Not a "hey I am here to have a good time and try to get laid bar," but a "What the **** are you doing here boy?" kinda bar.  Tell me you don't feel that animal kick in.

Responding to a different part of this thread:

Exercise:  if we do it for exercise, why are there so many people who do MA who are really way too far gone out of shape.  Want to be fit, hit the gym, drink more water, and watch your diet
Self-Discipline:  Self Help books - Tony Robbins comes to mind
Friendship:  Got my wife.  Join a knitting group or something.
Overcomeing Fears:  If I can kick your okole, you can out argue me and that is fine, but I can still kick your okole - SEE PROF. HARPER (not that he is ever wrong btw...don't come kicking my @ss!!!!)
Self- Confidence:  SEE above

Anyways.  I deserve some of special medal.  If this thread goes a couple pages that is. 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 11:53:03 PM by badsifu »
Dan Tyrrell

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 11:59:33 PM »
oh and hey.  Congrats Gints on your Dog Bros status.  Pretty cool digs man.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2007, 12:52:23 AM »
Thanks, Dan.   It took about 4-5 fights per Gathering for five events over several years.  Plus, you have to dominate (be a "non-loser", can't say the "w" word, though) most of your fights as well as be a good tribal citizen.   Then, to keep that title, you have to fight at least once every two years.    Marc Denny has really created something special for non-professional fighters .  Sifu Dean is going down this June for a good rumble.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 01:30:33 AM by Gints Klimanis »
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2007, 01:35:30 AM »
Animals fight.  Fish fight.  Deer fight.  Lions fight.  We are animals.  Or at least we were last time I checked. 

They do.  The counter is that we as humans in a larger society should not need to fight with our fists.   Also, that we have a special anatomical feature (brain) that enables us to work as a society without physicaly fighting amonst ourselves.

And as you rightly point out, fish do fight.  I'm watching a brood of one week old fish, each about 1/4" long.  When one stakes out his place near an aquatic leaf stalk, he chases away others his size with a fervor.  Amazing.


"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2007, 01:54:46 AM »
I'm going to go on record disagreeing with "the friends".

... Stuff deleted ...
List a few reasons besides "fighting, war, and violence," Ok:

Exercise
Self Discipline
Friendship
Overcoming Fears (One example would be fear reaction causing fight or flight response)
Self Confidence (see Overcoming Fears)

You rightly point out that there are other attributes to martial arts training.  The crux of the discussion is why choose the study and training of physical person-to-person combat ?   Personally, I agree with your friend's criticism, although they clearly do not understand the joy of fighting. 

You can exercise by running.
You can increase your discipline by running.
You can make friends by running in a group.
You can overcome some fears by ... NOT RUNNING.  >>>>> You have one.
You can increase your self-confidence by winning a running race.


We are all perfectly capable of defending ourselves on some level, and the odds of the majority of martial artists ever using their skills in a life and death self defense situation are slim at best.

Some types of martial arts training will improve the odds.  An answer I like to use to address the typical "The odds of my getting in a fight are low, so why waste my time preparing for a fight" remark is that martial arts training is far more practical than raquetball training.  What is the ultimate goal of raquetball ?   

Exercise
Fun
Challenge/Competition
Self-discipline
Comradery

I can get all of the above from a martial arts group, as well as learn to defend myself.  Now, that is practical.

(I'm sorry to pick on raquetball.   My primary martial arts club is located in a raquetball gym, so most of the critical remarks are from male raquetball players.  It's funny that none of the weightlifters make such comments.)




"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts