Author Topic: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?  (Read 27929 times)

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2007, 02:06:19 AM »
Martial Arts is about fighitng.  You can fluff a bunch of other stuff on it and say discipline, control, respect, blah blah blah.  That all comes from the training, ability, and the fear of kicking okole or getting your okole kicked. 

I'm glad Sifu Dan wrote this.    Bold and true.  Too many martial arts organizations are allowing the secondary benefits obscure this fundamental.   


"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
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LOYALONEHK

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2007, 04:17:03 AM »
Sifu Dean is going down this June for a good rumble.



 8)


TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2007, 09:35:41 AM »
Martial Arts is about fighitng.  You can fluff a bunch of other stuff on it and say discipline, control, respect, blah blah blah.  That all comes from the training, ability, and the fear of kicking okole or getting your okole kicked. 

I'm glad Sifu Dan wrote this.    Bold and true.  Too many martial arts organizations are allowing the secondary benefits obscure this fundamental.   




The initial post that started this thread clearly stated "just."

Is martial arts training "just" about "fighting, war and violence?"

I see it as a way, in many cases, as fight prevention. 

Does "fight prevention" fall under the intent of "fight" in the original post? 

As stated by myself and others, it provides many health benefits (Body, Mind and Spirit?)

Is martial arts "JUST" about "fighting, war and violence?"

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2007, 05:25:48 PM »
Nice posts all.

Is martial arts training "just" about "fighting, war and violence?"

I see it as a way, in many cases, as fight prevention. 

Does "fight prevention" fall under the intent of "fight" in the original post?


No, it falls under war or survival. The reality that someone will be hurt or killed when the crap hits the fan. The idea that the harder and more realistic you are in training, the more prepared you will be when the real thing happens. The realization that you fear for your life but you can still function to do what is necessary.

I would say, the first principle in training is always protect yourself, in combat it is don't get hit. In application it is to avoid getting in bad positions, counter and attack, not wait and defend. The first principle in self defense is awareness, avoid bad situations. They all are the same thing...

There is your fight prevention.

As stated by myself and others, it provides many health benefits (Body, Mind and Spirit?)

What is the difference between a fitness taebo class, martial arts, and war?

In fitness training you mostly stay within your comfort zone. In war you are thrust into panic, stress, adrenaline, and things way over your head, like a fish out of water for most... way out of your comfort zone.

In martial arts, it is training most of the time on the edge between being in your comfort zone and total war. A place beyond where you are totally comfortable and not so far that you are in way over your head and shutdown or panic.

Training on the edge. Great that there are health benefits, but to go outside your comfort zone is what makes it a martial art rather than a fitness class. You change not only on the outside, but on the inside also.

Is martial arts "JUST" about "fighting, war and violence?"

Martial arts is just about fighting, war and violence in its roots. However, a martial artist has different comfort zones, all that matters is that one trains on the edge so as not to be too comfortable (hence it is not just exercise and fitness). To someone this edge might be forms and light or no contact, to others it might be full contact and pressure testing.

Outside of training, in real world, you can live in peace with compassion, in comfort or God forbid you live a life where real world is war as some do everyday to protect the rest of us... anyway, the training is on the edge, somewhere in gap between the two.

Maybe start with basic strikes on pads, a few years down the road, now you dish it out as much as you take it, full contact. It matters not so long as it meets your needs and you never get too comfortable with your training.

As a martial artist, you train and live on the edge most of the time... whatever the meaning of martial arts is... it is in the DOING not in the theory or talking.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2007, 08:54:52 PM »
Nice posts all.

Is martial arts training "just" about "fighting, war and violence?"

I see it as a way, in many cases, as fight prevention. 

Does "fight prevention" fall under the intent of "fight" in the original post?


No, it falls under war or survival. The reality that someone will be hurt or killed when the crap hits the fan. The idea that the harder and more realistic you are in training, the more prepared you will be when the real thing happens. The realization that you fear for your life but you can still function to do what is necessary.

I would say, the first principle in training is always protect yourself, in combat it is don't get hit. In application it is to avoid getting in bad positions, counter and attack, not wait and defend. The first principle in self defense is awareness, avoid bad situations. They all are the same thing...

There is your fight prevention.

As stated by myself and others, it provides many health benefits (Body, Mind and Spirit?)

What is the difference between a fitness taebo class, martial arts, and war?

In fitness training you mostly stay within your comfort zone. In war you are thrust into panic, stress, adrenaline, and things way over your head, like a fish out of water for most... way out of your comfort zone.

In martial arts, it is training most of the time on the edge between being in your comfort zone and total war. A place beyond where you are totally comfortable and not so far that you are in way over your head and shutdown or panic.

Training on the edge. Great that there are health benefits, but to go outside your comfort zone is what makes it a martial art rather than a fitness class. You change not only on the outside, but on the inside also.

Is martial arts "JUST" about "fighting, war and violence?"

Martial arts is just about fighting, war and violence in its roots. However, a martial artist has different comfort zones, all that matters is that one trains on the edge so as not to be too comfortable (hence it is not just exercise and fitness). To someone this edge might be forms and light or no contact, to others it might be full contact and pressure testing.

Outside of training, in real world, you can live in peace with compassion, in comfort or God forbid you live a life where real world is war as some do everyday to protect the rest of us... anyway, the training is on the edge, somewhere in gap between the two.

Maybe start with basic strikes on pads, a few years down the road, now you dish it out as much as you take it, full contact. It matters not so long as it meets your needs and you never get too comfortable with your training.

As a martial artist, you train and live on the edge most of the time... whatever the meaning of martial arts is... it is in the DOING not in the theory or talking.


"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "survival."  Martial Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"

"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "awareness".  Martial Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"

"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "change!"  Marital Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"

The "root" of "martial arts" has nothing to do with the question that started this thread. 

Martial Arts leads many to a life of peace through threat deterrence.  Martial Arts is about more than "JUST FIGHTING, WAR AND VIOLENCE."

How many true Martial Artists use their training for ONLY "Fighting, War and Violence?"  Unless your answer is every martial artist who has ever lived, martial arts cannot be about "just fighting, war and violence."

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2007, 01:04:31 AM »
I guess it depends on what you consider to be a true martial artisits then.  Sounds like your definition is different than mine.

Martial Arts leads many to a life of peace through threat deterrence.  Martial Arts is about more than "JUST FIGHTING, WAR AND VIOLENCE."

How many true Martial Artists use their training for ONLY "Fighting, War and Violence?"  Unless your answer is every martial artist who has ever lived, martial arts cannot be about "just fighting, war and violence."
Dan Tyrrell

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2007, 02:10:37 AM »
I guess it depends on what you consider to be a true martial artisits then.  Sounds like your definition is different than mine.

Martial Arts leads many to a life of peace through threat deterrence.  Martial Arts is about more than "JUST FIGHTING, WAR AND VIOLENCE."

How many true Martial Artists use their training for ONLY "Fighting, War and Violence?"  Unless your answer is every martial artist who has ever lived, martial arts cannot be about "just fighting, war and violence."

Balance?

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2007, 03:08:28 AM »
"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "survival."  Martial Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"

War is not about survival? I would say the opposite. Perhaps wars are started for reasons other than survival, but to the people in the fight, it is about survival. You want a broad definition of Martial Arts but you seem to have such a narrow definition of what war is. Why is that?

"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "awareness".  Martial Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"


Fighting is not about awareness? Tell that to those on the front lines that need to be prepared at a moments notice. Again you may want a broad definition of Martial Arts but seen to have a narrow definition of what fighting is. Ever been in a fight where no physical contact was ever made? Yelling, screaming, etc. that's still a fight, someone still can get hurt and there is always the potential for worse.

"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "change!"  Marital Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"


War is not change? Are you saying that war is static, or that peace following war is always the same as before? Again, why do you appear to have such a narrow definition of war?

The "root" of "martial arts" has nothing to do with the question that started this thread.


Then I ask, if it has NO fighting, NO War, and NO violence, can it still be called Martial Arts?

Martial Arts leads many to a life of peace through threat deterrence.  Martial Arts is about more than "JUST FIGHTING, WAR AND VIOLENCE."

Here I feel you mix philosophy with training. As I said before, it is about "falling seven times, but rising eight." Where is the philosophy in this other than your own fighting spirit? A martial artist can be a cold blooded killer, and probably many have. A martial artist can be a compassionate, peaceful person, and many have been and are.

You are free to have ANY philosophy you want and still be a martial artist. However, when you put your life on the line. When your friends and family and team mates put their lives on the line. Many come out of these experiences with a respect and appreciation for life and a compassion for fellow people.

In Aikido, and you probably agree that it has the reputation as a very peaceful art. I particularly saw the paradox in some when philosophy and training were not kept separate. I saw the old timers that foremost studied the sword principles and jujutsu. To them the training was hard, there was a sincere sense of danger in what they did and if they messed up they could be badly injured. However, these old timers had a compassion for life. If they were to get in a real world fight, they would consider that a failure of their training. They would rather that they succeed in avoiding a fight. If they had to use their skills to really hurt someone, again that would be considered a failure to them. They were of course quite capable in their skills and instinctively they could use them in practical application should they have to. Many did, but each time they hurt someone in real world, it took something from them... it pained them. Their philosophy of peace was separate from their training, in training they push it to the limit, it was violent, it was war, it was fighting... but it was training and there was control and was not brutal, just to the point, no extra philosophical baggage included.

They were not the paradox. The paradox were the martial artists that came into training with an agenda, some kind of philosophical idea of peace that they tried to push on to others to such an extent that even in training they had to have perfect harmony. Training was non-violent, and certainly never involved fighting or war. They were the real paradox in my opinion.

How many true Martial Artists use their training for ONLY "Fighting, War and Violence?"  Unless your answer is every martial artist who has ever lived, martial arts cannot be about "just fighting, war and violence."


Here you changed the question I believe, but even so... rather than try to broaden the definition of what is a true martial artists or what is martial arts... I say first broaden your definition of what fighting, war, and violence is.

You might find, and I'm just sure if you will agree, that training in fighting includes avoiding fights, that training in war includes the reality and hope to also live in peaceful times, and violence includes the prevention of violence and the coping and recovery from violent acts after they have happened.

You don't have to agree.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 10:50:07 AM by Wado »
W. Yamauchi
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Vala Au

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2007, 03:39:17 AM »
One of my Instructor, Prof. Jerry Yuson, definition of Kajukenbo was "So you can broke the guys asp, then go home and have a few beers".

A real pragmatist, when asked about meditation, he said, " he only did it in the morning while sitting on the can, so everything came out alright".

That deep enough for ya?

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2007, 03:47:23 AM »
Quote from: TEricksen
Balance?

I would say that is a good definition. Simple and can get the point across. Vague enough that it can in interpreted to suit the needs of many.

Again I caution the combining of philosophy with training. Through training one should discover the need and benefits of balance. For instance the need for balance between training and real life, and the advantages of keeping balance in combat while unbalancing the enemy... etc.

However, if one comes into martial arts with a preconceived philosophy that they will get balance, it is like they are seeking martial arts to solve all their internal life problems... There is a danger that they will already be set with the answer but have no real experience in the question that makes the answer valid. There is a danger, IMHO, that they will try to keep balance without really learning anything from it.

Rather I would just have someone train sincerely and ask a lot of questions... find their own answers with an open mind. Bring them to a state of unbalance in training so that they find how to regain balance, and eventually how to counter and avoid unbalancing. Learn to walk before they run.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 03:49:13 AM by Wado »
W. Yamauchi
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TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2007, 11:05:48 AM »
Dear Kajukenbocafe people,

I was online researching martial arts, and I ran across your website.  I see that some very high ranking people within the Kajukenbo organization strongly feel that Kajukenbo is "just about fighting, war and violence."

Thank you for your time, but I think I will continue my search for a style that does not preach "just fighting, war and violence."

Sincerely,
Ignorant Joe Public

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2007, 11:11:30 AM »
"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "survival."  Martial Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"

War is not about survival? I would say the opposite. Perhaps wars are started for reasons other than survival, but to the people in the fight, it is about survival. You want a broad definition of Martial Arts but you seem to have such a narrow definition of what war is. Why is that?

"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "awareness".  Martial Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"


Fighting is not about awareness? Tell that to those on the front lines that need to be prepared at a moments notice. Again you may want a broad definition of Martial Arts but seen to have a narrow definition of what fighting is. Ever been in a fight where no physical contact was ever made? Yelling, screaming, etc. that's still a fight, someone still can get hurt and there is always the potential for worse.

"Fighting, War, and Violence" is not "change!"  Marital Arts is about more than "Fighting, War, and Violence!"


War is not change? Are you saying that war is static, or that peace following war is always the same as before? Again, why do you appear to have such a narrow definition of war?

The "root" of "martial arts" has nothing to do with the question that started this thread.


Then I ask, if it has NO fighting, NO War, and NO violence, can it still be called Martial Arts?

Martial Arts leads many to a life of peace through threat deterrence.  Martial Arts is about more than "JUST FIGHTING, WAR AND VIOLENCE."

Here I feel you mix philosophy with training. As I said before, it is about "falling seven times, but rising eight." Where is the philosophy in this other than your own fighting spirit? A martial artist can be a cold blooded killer, and probably many have. A martial artist can be a compassionate, peaceful person, and many have been and are.

You are free to have ANY philosophy you want and still be a martial artist. However, when you put your life on the line. When your friends and family and team mates put their lives on the line. Many come out of these experiences with a respect and appreciation for life and a compassion for fellow people.

In Aikido, and you probably agree that it has the reputation as a very peaceful art. I particularly saw the paradox in some when philosophy and training were not kept separate. I saw the old timers that foremost studied the sword principles and jujutsu. To them the training was hard, there was a sincere sense of danger in what they did and if they messed up they could be badly injured. However, these old timers had a compassion for life. If they were to get in a real world fight, they would consider that a failure of their training. They would rather that they succeed in avoiding a fight. If they had to use their skills to really hurt someone, again that would be considered a failure to them. They were of course quite capable in their skills and instinctively they could use them in practical application should they have to. Many did, but each time they hurt someone in real world, it took something from them... it pained them. Their philosophy of peace was separate from their training, in training they push it to the limit, it was violent, it was war, it was fighting... but it was training and there was control and was not brutal, just to the point, no extra philosophical baggage included.

They were not the paradox. The paradox were the martial artists that came into training with an agenda, some kind of philosophical idea of peace that they tried to push on to others to such an extent that even in training they had to have perfect harmony. Training was non-violent, and certainly never involved fighting or war. They were the real paradox in my opinion.

How many true Martial Artists use their training for ONLY "Fighting, War and Violence?"  Unless your answer is every martial artist who has ever lived, martial arts cannot be about "just fighting, war and violence."


Here you changed the question I believe, but even so... rather than try to broaden the definition of what is a true martial artists or what is martial arts... I say first broaden your definition of what fighting, war, and violence is.

You might find, and I'm just sure if you will agree, that training in fighting includes avoiding fights, that training in war includes the reality and hope to also live in peaceful times, and violence includes the prevention of violence and the coping and recovery from violent acts after they have happened.

You don't have to agree.
...... but this thread started out with a very narrow definition of martial arts. 

It was clearly stated that martial arts is "just about fighting, war and violence," and that "philosophy" has been reiterated in numerous posts in this thread.

Martial arts is about more than fighting, war, violence, philosophy, survival, awareness, and change. :-)

Offline Wado

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2007, 11:37:29 AM »
...... but this thread started out with a very narrow definition of martial arts. 

It was clearly stated that martial arts is "just about fighting, war and violence," and that "philosophy" has been reiterated in numerous posts in this thread.

Martial arts is about more than fighting, war, violence, philosophy, survival, awareness, and change. :-)

Fair enough, but I still believe that you are confusing philosophy with training. Martial arts is about the training for fighting, war, and violence. There is no set philosophy attached to this training.

Certainly I don't speak for everyone so this is just my opinion.

Training for war does not make you a bad person, it does not mean that you wish for war. IMHO, what makes someone a bad person in having bad intentions and doing unnecessary bad things to others.

I am sorry if my words may be discouraging to you, but what exactly are you trying to get at. Are you selling something? Certainly I tell people the benefits of discipline and fitness that comes from training, I'm selling martial arts to them because they are interested in it.

If you aren't selling something, then what do you say to your friends that say that martial arts is only about fighting, war, and violence? What would be the reason NOT to agree with them? They are trying to judge you by what you do without fully understanding it.

Would you rather your friends judge you because you are a martial artist, or would you rather your friends know you for who you are, a friend. Do you want people to respect you because you have a black belt, or would you rather they didn't even care if you have a black belt and respect you because of who you are on the inside?

TEricksen, you are judging us by our words... fair enough, but have any of us judged you by your words... no, we listened, read, and respected what you had to say. We only care that you train hard and find fulfillment in your training and life. Like family.

Sorry to vent.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2007, 12:21:00 PM »
Dear Kajukenbocafe people,

I was online researching martial arts, and I ran across your website.  I see that some very high ranking people within the Kajukenbo organization strongly feel that Kajukenbo is "just about fighting, war and violence."

Thank you for your time, but I think I will continue my search for a style that does not preach "just fighting, war and violence."

Sincerely,
Ignorant Joe Public

This is EXACTLY what I want. 

You want to enroll your kid cause he is a brat and has no respect.  You have been messing up teaching him values his entire life now you bring him to me to fix.  Your kid lacks confidence because he is overweight.  You and your lack of a spine have let your kid run the show and dictate what and when they will be eating.  Now he is fat and kids make fun of him and that is tossing his confidence right out the door.  You don't want him up on a watertower shooting people in 20 years so you want to enroll him in Karate classes.  You messed up, so you bring him to me.  You are 40 something and have no passion in life.  You saw a UFC and want to do that stuff cause you think it'll get you in shape and chicks will dig you.  You wanna enroll in my classes and punch a heavybag, wear a Tapout shirt and tell all your buddies at your boring job that you are training at a MMA school with cage fighters so your fellow workers will fear you.  In reality, you are just covering up your own issues and will probably quit in a few weeks - usually after the first time you get smacked in the mouth or get raped on the ground.  The problem here is that by saying Martial Arts is about all these other things, then we are allowing people to misbehave and destroy what martial arts is about - fighting.

It is a very slippery slope.  Don't believe me?  For all the fun we tend to make of TKD, there was at one point a lot of good fighters that came from TKD.  Same for Kenpo.  Now it is almost comical what the majority of the "martial artists" have become in those disciplines.  If you look at their ads, if you look at their curriculum, they aren't teaching people how to fight anymore.  They have become self-help gurus teaching messed up adults and messed up kids "values" that should have been taught to them by their parents or at the very least the school of hard knocks.

I will not participate in this degredation of the martial arts.  Martial arts was and should be about fighting.   I let the person who wants to just pretend go to the competitor's school.  Give me the person who wants to learn how to kick @ss.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline johnny3443

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2007, 01:24:24 PM »
Badsifu, ;D you nailed it, what I wish I could say if I had the ability to form cognitive responses.

Oh yea, my first post on this board after lurking so long, (Dr Nick voice) Hello everybody!!
John Gallo