Author Topic: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?  (Read 27903 times)

Offline guarded

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2007, 01:40:24 PM »
I originally started in Martial Arts as something I could do year around to stay flexible and in shape.  I quickly learned that it was something I loved and was good at.  What was it that I loved so much.  The competitiveness and the contact.  I LOVED THE FIGHTING. ;D  Not so deep after all.... for me anyway. 
Jerry Guard
Kajukenbo Tum Pai Brown/Black Sash under Prof. Steve Larson          My everyday stance is my fighting stance.  My fighting stance is my everyday stance.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2007, 02:14:47 PM »
I've been following this and watching where it went.....Very nice writings Sifu Wade and Sigung Dan.
 I started the arts very early grammar school and to tell you the truth, I already liked to fight.  I enjoyed it and looked for it.  Training gave me more focus and  the more I trained the less I looked for fights. 
Of course over 3 and half decades you change and sometimes (say early college...you regress)  But as a whole I have become more and more mellow as a person.
  I think taking the arts to fight/or protect themselves is what most are there for.  I get those students that say they are there to loose weight or whatever, but later tell me well it was really secondary to being more self confident.

 I believe once you have trained enough and developed self confidence in your own abilities you may turn to the philosophical side or Chi etc.,,,,,, 
Many that say they are in the arts for this softer side are in reality afraid....an inner fear is present they don't want anyone to know so they mask it with the statements "I'm here for the internal side" or whatever.  But if they could take a pill and be a fierce fighter they would.

There is that old saying "Face your Fears and Live your Dream"......I believe it.....
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 02:16:49 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2007, 02:39:49 PM »
Dear Kajukenbocafe people,

I was online researching martial arts, and I ran across your website.  I see that some very high ranking people within the Kajukenbo organization strongly feel that Kajukenbo is "just about fighting, war and violence."

Thank you for your time, but I think I will continue my search for a style that does not preach "just fighting, war and violence."

Sincerely,
Ignorant Joe Public

Excellent point, Mr. Toby.    While I am not a high-ranking Kaju person, I'll take a stab at a response.

"
Dear. Mr. Ignorant Joe Public,

Visit your local video rental store and check out an edition of the Ultimate Fighting Championships or Pride as well as copy of Hero.  If you find the former more appealing, please continue reading this board to make connections with the people that can help you develop such abilities.

The messages you read do not recommend or initiate war, violence and fighting.   On the contrary, they simply state the origin and purpose of martial arts.   Many martial arts have developed to train specific fighting principles or techniques that are no longer tested by mock fighting AKA sparring.   If you are drawn to the martial arts to learn to fight in a safe, structured environment among new friends, Kajukenbo and other fighting-oriented arts are for you.  





"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2007, 02:45:26 PM »
I originally started in Martial Arts as something I could do year around to stay flexible and in shape. 

I'll admit that I was one of the people drawn to "kung-fu movie" theatrical martial arts as I thought that is what you needed to do to defend yourself.   In a couple of years, I learned that other sports maintained flexibility and physical conditioning, and the flashy martial arts were merely a way to do gymnastics without the tights.   

"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Gints Klimanis

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More outside opinion by "Sports psychologist"
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2007, 02:57:54 PM »
Here's another excerpt from a transcript of an Associated Press video on fight clubs .  Dr. Bonnie Morris appears to have a positive slant on the topic despite her words.  Those nuances are lost in text that can't carry voice nuances and facial expressions .

Dr. Bonnie Morris, Sports Sociologist - George Washington University:

"The thrill or the pain of tackling somebody or what is it like to dodge a kind of tackle, that''s something people are able to explore on their own. But turning it into a club has a lot of meaning because that makes it a secret society. You can exclude people, you can include people. That''s going to appeal to folks who want to belong and who want to test themselves."

" We have a very homophobic culture which is right now really increasing punitive measures against gay people. That has pushed a lot of guys to present an ultra masculine front."

PARAPHRASING FROM TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Bonnie Morris, a sports sociologist at George Washington University, says the desire to test one''s skills to the limit is not new, but making it a club creates a different atmosphere.

Dr Morris says that for men, the fight club is a way to present their strong, masculine image while bonding with other men in a test of physical endurance.

She believes the desire to assert ''maleness'' is a reflection of the inherent homophobia in US culture.


"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Kaju Bear

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2007, 03:18:05 PM »
‚ÄúI have many friends who only see martial arts as just fighting, war, and violence.  This pains me to hear my friends say those kinds of things about it because I know that in a deeper level, martial arts teaches just the opposite of that.  I was just wondering on anyone's thoughts on how I can explain to people the true meaning of martial arts... and was also curious to see everyone's view on the "true meaning" of martial arts in general.  Mahalo!!!‚Äù

I have read this thread and those who have shared their answers to this original post and some of its off shoot discussions and here are my thoughts.

Bottom line up front, Martial Arts should be at its core about fighting. It should be a disciplined study of how to do physical harm to another person in order to meet the objective of not having physical harm done to you. Warriors practice combative skills in order to kill or subdue the enemy. We don’t do it to build character, for exercise, develop mental toughness, and or to conduct mystical searches within ourselves for “center” or “calm” or “enlightenment” as our core objective. We do it to be proficient at the physical execution of destructive techniques.

Now can there also be other benefits both mental and physical attributed to the study of the martial arts? Absolutely! But these other benefits are not the true primary objectives or deeper meaning of the martial arts study.

I understand that for some to hear this seems like a strange contradiction of what they are taught. That is because at some point their system or school or art stopped focusing on remaining true to the core objective, as I see it, to rather focus on the acceptance by the general public of their combative skills as a comparable substitute for aerobics, gymnastics or some other commercial viable sport.

I do not mean to insult anyone who teaches kids and or others and does not have them develop into little Army Rangers. I also have run a school and did not teach children to kill people. There are marketable aspects of martial arts training, ie self defense classes or programs that apply to this type of student.

I also must acknowledge that the majority of individuals that refer to themselves, as martial artist today are in reality by my own definition only practitioners of Self Defense programs that barrow techniques and some tactics of martial arts systems in order to accommodate that goal of being marketable. That makes people like me a minority and I am just fine with that.

To Mr. Toby Eriksen – please do not abandon your position or this site just because your beliefs about the purpose of your objectives for training in KAJUKENBO – Tum Pai are not shared by “some senior ranking” people here. They are adults just like you and I strongly encourage you to continue to share with the group and participate in the group’s larger purpose which is to share with one another via vie this wonderful outlet of our love and practice of KAJUKENBO.

As a Tum Pai black sash myself I know that you could not have gotten to your current status in that organization under Sifu Larsen without having developed a “thick skin” and the ability to hear an opinion contrary to your own. There are very few Tum Pai practitioners that participate on regular bases here. It would be great if you and others changed that.

My very sincere best wished to you and your teacher.   

 


Sifu Morg Olsen
3rd degree, Emperado Method, Senior Grand Master Kaanana
1st degree, Tum Pai, Grand Master Robert Heuer

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2007, 03:38:26 PM »
Dear Kajukenbocafe people,

I was online researching martial arts, and I ran across your website.  I see that some very high ranking people within the Kajukenbo organization strongly feel that Kajukenbo is "just about fighting, war and violence."

Thank you for your time, but I think I will continue my search for a style that does not preach "just fighting, war and violence."

Sincerely,
Ignorant Joe Public

My answer to this person would be that we (Kajukenbo practitioners) are peaceful people.  But unlike many peaceful people around the world, we refuse to allow others to take advantage of our peaceful nature to victimize us or those around us. 
"I" teach and practice Kajukenbo for self defense purposes.  Self defense requires the ability to fight.  Successful self defense often requires the ability to fight viciously and ruthlessly.  So I owe it to my students to make sure they are prepared to do so.   
If I find that a student is learning Kajukenbo so that he may victimize others, then he will no longer be a student of mine.

Now are there other side benefits to Kajukenbo training?  Sure. 
You will become stronger and better conditioned.
You will learn how to push yourself to acheive things you didn't think you could.  That will build confidence.
You will find some peace of mind in knowing that you can defend yourself and those around you.
You will make some lifelong friends, that you know will have your back.
BUT #1, YOU WILL KNOW HOW TO FIGHT!

Now if you mainly want the side benefits, and don't care much about the fighting part, then there are many other options that will work better for you.
There are great physical trainers and programs for getting you in top physical condition.
There are military schools and boot camps to teach you disipline and respect.
And there are fine religious and educational institutions who can better teach you about philosophy and self improvement.

It may not be a real good business philosophy, but I have no problems telling people upfront that Kajukenbo is NOT for everyone. 
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2007, 06:40:46 PM »
‚ÄúI have many friends who only see martial arts as just fighting, war, and violence.  This pains me to hear my friends say those kinds of things about it because I know that in a deeper level, martial arts teaches just the opposite of that.  I was just wondering on anyone's thoughts on how I can explain to people the true meaning of martial arts... and was also curious to see everyone's view on the "true meaning" of martial arts in general.  Mahalo!!!‚Äù

I have read this thread and those who have shared their answers to this original post and some of its off shoot discussions and here are my thoughts.

Bottom line up front, Martial Arts should be at its core about fighting. It should be a disciplined study of how to do physical harm to another person in order to meet the objective of not having physical harm done to you. Warriors practice combative skills in order to kill or subdue the enemy. We don’t do it to build character, for exercise, develop mental toughness, and or to conduct mystical searches within ourselves for “center” or “calm” or “enlightenment” as our core objective. We do it to be proficient at the physical execution of destructive techniques.

Now can there also be other benefits both mental and physical attributed to the study of the martial arts? Absolutely! But these other benefits are not the true primary objectives or deeper meaning of the martial arts study.

I understand that for some to hear this seems like a strange contradiction of what they are taught. That is because at some point their system or school or art stopped focusing on remaining true to the core objective, as I see it, to rather focus on the acceptance by the general public of their combative skills as a comparable substitute for aerobics, gymnastics or some other commercial viable sport.

I do not mean to insult anyone who teaches kids and or others and does not have them develop into little Army Rangers. I also have run a school and did not teach children to kill people. There are marketable aspects of martial arts training, ie self defense classes or programs that apply to this type of student.

I also must acknowledge that the majority of individuals that refer to themselves, as martial artist today are in reality by my own definition only practitioners of Self Defense programs that barrow techniques and some tactics of martial arts systems in order to accommodate that goal of being marketable. That makes people like me a minority and I am just fine with that.

To Mr. Toby Eriksen – please do not abandon your position or this site just because your beliefs about the purpose of your objectives for training in KAJUKENBO – Tum Pai are not shared by “some senior ranking” people here. They are adults just like you and I strongly encourage you to continue to share with the group and participate in the group’s larger purpose which is to share with one another via vie this wonderful outlet of our love and practice of KAJUKENBO.

As a Tum Pai black sash myself I know that you could not have gotten to your current status in that organization under Sifu Larsen without having developed a “thick skin” and the ability to hear an opinion contrary to your own. There are very few Tum Pai practitioners that participate on regular bases here. It would be great if you and others changed that.

My very sincere best wished to you and your teacher.   

 



Sifu Olsen,

I'm not going anywhere, and I'm actually surprised that some took my rhetorical post as something I was stating.  I was only trying to show that this site is a resource for the public, and as we all know, words are the only thing they have to go by when judging the character of site members.  I am simply attempting to debate a topic that was, at it's onset, very one sided. 

My skin is in good order, and I highly respect contrary opinions as they very much lead to mental challenges, soul searching, and rethinking beliefs.  I state often that what I know to be true today, may change tomorrow, and my pride is such that I embrace new thoughts, twists, ideas and concepts.  Debate is healthy!  Has any of this changed my view of martial arts as more than "just fighting, war and violence?"  No...................... but it has had me thinking long and hard about focus in training.

The words, "martial arts is just about fighting, war and violence" can and will be interpreted by many to mean exactly what their written black and white statement implies, when in reality the majority of contributors to this thead back up the fact, with their words, that martial arts is about more than "just fighting, war and violence."








TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2007, 06:49:40 PM »
Dear Kajukenbocafe people,

I was online researching martial arts, and I ran across your website.  I see that some very high ranking people within the Kajukenbo organization strongly feel that Kajukenbo is "just about fighting, war and violence."

Thank you for your time, but I think I will continue my search for a style that does not preach "just fighting, war and violence."

Sincerely,
Ignorant Joe Public

My answer to this person would be that we (Kajukenbo practitioners) are peaceful people.  But unlike many peaceful people around the world, we refuse to allow others to take advantage of our peaceful nature to victimize us or those around us. 
"I" teach and practice Kajukenbo for self defense purposes.  Self defense requires the ability to fight.  Successful self defense often requires the ability to fight viciously and ruthlessly.  So I owe it to my students to make sure they are prepared to do so.   
If I find that a student is learning Kajukenbo so that he may victimize others, then he will no longer be a student of mine.

Now are there other side benefits to Kajukenbo training?  Sure. 
You will become stronger and better conditioned.
You will learn how to push yourself to acheive things you didn't think you could.  That will build confidence.
You will find some peace of mind in knowing that you can defend yourself and those around you.
You will make some lifelong friends, that you know will have your back.
BUT #1, YOU WILL KNOW HOW TO FIGHT!

Now if you mainly want the side benefits, and don't care much about the fighting part, then there are many other options that will work better for you.
There are great physical trainers and programs for getting you in top physical condition.
There are military schools and boot camps to teach you disipline and respect.
And there are fine religious and educational institutions who can better teach you about philosophy and self improvement.

It may not be a real good business philosophy, but I have no problems telling people upfront that Kajukenbo is NOT for everyone. 
............... and a great answer it is!  The only problem is that the person who wrote that, in all probability, never would have actually written the words down:  They would have simply passed on Kajukenbo, never having given it a chance.

I fully agree that at the core, martial arts is about fighting, war and violence.  The statement that "martial arts is just about fighting, war and violence", in my opinion, is false.  Am I making a big deal about the inclusion of the word "just"?  Yes. 

Leave out the word "just", and I don't see where there would be any disagreement in this thread, and the thread probably would have died a quiet death free from healthy dialogue and debate. 

I, for one, cherish healthy dialogue and debate! :-)

Offline Serene

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2007, 03:08:41 AM »
For me, marital arts is like insurance.

Plus, I have it for my home, car and my family. We have insurance for "just in case" that one day where something goes bad, but its okay because we are covered. ;D

I teach my students insurance - best to have it and never use it than to be caught and have NOTHING.

Soifua,
Sifu Serene Terrazas
Head Instructor
Terrazas Kajukenbo
American Canyon, Ca.

allen73

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2007, 12:25:43 PM »
  I've been following this topic and thought I would add my thoughts.First let me state my reasons for training,TO LEARN HOW TO FIGHT AND WIN. If I become a better person because of my training ok, if I lose some extra pounds ok, if my self confidence goes up ok, but my main goal is to learn how to FIGHT. I think of my self as a WARRIOR first and foremost not some of the time but all of the time, as anybody should if they train in the ARTS OF WAR which is what martial arts are about. Look at many of the systems out there today.I'll take Hwa Rang Do for example,it was created as a WARRIORS art,yes it encouraged pride for oneself and for country but it was mainly a WAR based system. Now as for Kajukenbo it was made for War but a different kind of one it was designed for War out on the street which can be just as brutal as War on the battlefield.Now I would like to comment on Sigung Dan's comment. I have seen the same thing he has.Being an assistant instructor at my old school,parents would bring me their kids in order for me to make them lose weight or get rid of the attitude they had.Case in point one parent asked me what I thought about her son, I told her he had potential but he was fat, you should have seen her face(priceless) I also went on to tell her that her and her husband would have to stop appeasing him with trips to Mcdonalds,I also explained to her that changes would have to happen at home in order for him to start losing weight.Well needless to say she didn't sign him up(Hey I'm good but I can't perform miracles).I also had a kid who would tell his mom and dad to shut up even in front of me. His dad said he had a little attitude problem and thought he was Billy Bad Asp, so I let  him, spar with one of the other kids(I had my student take off his belt) well little Billy learned that he wasn't as  tough as he thought he was.Being a former Infantryman we are taught the Warrior Ethos and to think of ourselfs as WARRIORS, If you look at the Marine Corp Martial Art program they study the warrior cultures of many lands(Right Sifu Dean ;D).Warriors are a special breed of people who answer to and hold themselfs to a higher standard of living. Well I shall rant no longer so I'll leave you with this last bit of information. There is a great book out there called"Living the Martial Way" it's written by Forrest E.Morgan it might help shed some light on this topic. Mahalo....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 12:28:46 PM by allen73 »

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2007, 09:16:53 PM »
Does this quote back up the statement that martial arts is "just about fighting, war and violence?"

"Martial Arts

The answer is found in the first step.  The answer is found in every step after.  Martial arts is often related to a journey, where you walk a path of self-perfection.  The journey that one takes through martial arts is one that strengthens the body, calms the mind, and balances the spirit.  Every step is a new trial, a greater hurdle, a taller mountain, a deeper canyon ‚Äì forging the self into something greater than before."

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2007, 10:43:44 PM »
Does this quote back up the statement that martial arts is "just about fighting, war and violence?"

Nice riposte !  

Often in martial arts literature, we read such profound yet vague prose.   Hmmmm.   Any chance that quote was written in the past by someone on this board ?

I have no doubt that a person can walk the path to self-perfection in martial arts, flower arranging, photography, electric guitar or volleyball.  We are still left with the reasons for choosing martial arts over other disciplines in our lofty quest for self-perfection.



« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 11:39:28 PM by Gints Klimanis »
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline badsifu

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2007, 02:15:31 AM »
He is quoting from a page from my website. 

Each section of the website is designed to inform the reader about our program in general.  There are very few specifics if any on the web page about our teaching methods or what we teach.  The bottom line, the web page is an ad for what we do at our schools.  Since each one of the schools teaches things in a slightly different way, I left the site about as ambiguous as I possibly could.  However, I left enough information for just about anyone to prompt them to call the school.

The answer to TEricksen's question is no.  The statement says nothing about anything really.  It gets the reader to input their own answers into the statement.  Helps the reader visualize themselves in the martial arts.  If they see themselves as Zen Masters, they will read my statement and put their own thoughts into it.  If they see themselves as Super Ninja Cage Fighters...well, you get the point.  If they have a clearer picture in their head when they call me, then I know how to direct them easier.  It seems that you may have read the statement and put your own self into those positions and after doing so thought to yourself "Hey, Dan is full of cr@p!  He is saying one thing on Kajucafe and another on his website."  If I got you to think that, then I guess the whole article worked on you too.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 02:35:40 AM by badsifu »
Dan Tyrrell

TEricksen

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Re: Explaining the deeper side.... what is the true meaning?
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2007, 09:34:40 AM »
He is quoting from a page from my website. 

Each section of the website is designed to inform the reader about our program in general.  There are very few specifics if any on the web page about our teaching methods or what we teach.  The bottom line, the web page is an ad for what we do at our schools.  Since each one of the schools teaches things in a slightly different way, I left the site about as ambiguous as I possibly could.  However, I left enough information for just about anyone to prompt them to call the school.

The answer to TEricksen's question is no.  The statement says nothing about anything really.  It gets the reader to input their own answers into the statement.  Helps the reader visualize themselves in the martial arts.  If they see themselves as Zen Masters, they will read my statement and put their own thoughts into it.  If they see themselves as Super Ninja Cage Fighters...well, you get the point.  If they have a clearer picture in their head when they call me, then I know how to direct them easier.  It seems that you may have read the statement and put your own self into those positions and after doing so thought to yourself "Hey, Dan is full of cr@p!  He is saying one thing on Kajucafe and another on his website."  If I got you to think that, then I guess the whole article worked on you too.

badsifu,

Why did you delete the post immediately following mine and right before Gints' post?  It did not say that your quote was "nothing but an advertising gimmick."  Did you change your mind?