Author Topic: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA  (Read 19586 times)

Offline Mickey

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SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« on: April 03, 2007, 12:11:30 PM »
I love MMA but...

Verbal taunts. Physical taunts. etc. Mixed Martial Arts?

What happend to respect? Honor? Sportsmanship? I still see Martial Arts before the word Mixed and to me those 2 words mean a lot.

Maybe I'm a little old fashioned but I was always taught to respect my opponent, shake their hand before we fight and whether I won or lost I would always shake his hand after the fight?

Now in MMA I see guys knocking out each other and then dancing around? Its bad enough that the guy is unconscious but to be parading around in victory makes me sick. Don't get me wrong celebrating is cool..but excessive celebrating..Profanity on shirts etc..is just stupid.

In Pro Sports there are penalites
In basketball theres technical fouls.
In Football theres Flags.
In Soccer you get yellow cards.

The list goes on..

Kids are watching these "PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS/ATHLETES?" whether they like it or not they are role models!!

The day I have kids I don't want my kid saying "Dad I want to be like Nick Diaz!!" Don't get me wrong he's a great fighter but every other word out of his mouth is F*k. this or that..come on?

So if they see guys flippin each other off and jumping around dont you think kids will follow and think thats its ok?..
Conduct yourself as a professional and have some class?

Should there be penalites/fines for this kind of behavior?

Tell me what you guys think?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 12:16:53 PM by Sifu Mick »

Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2007, 01:06:47 PM »
Yes.  And we don't see all of this in Sport Karate tournaments these days.

HEY EVERYONE!! I GOT A POINT!  LOOK AT ME WHEN I PUMP MY FIST IN THE AIR!
Dan Tyrrell

Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2007, 05:57:35 PM »
Yes.  And we don't see all of this in Sport Karate tournaments these days.

HEY EVERYONE!! I GOT A POINT!  LOOK AT ME WHEN I PUMP MY FIST IN THE AIR!

Everyone knows Sport Karate doesn't teach respect....they need to cross-train in Kung Fu to get that. Jeez....I thought everyone knew that.  :-\
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline Hook

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 07:42:39 AM »
 I fully agree there is far to much unsportsman like conduct. It sets a very bad example for young fighters and fans.
Sibak Raymond Hook

Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 08:18:47 AM »
Competitions have become more like Professional Wrestling than martial arts.  I say why go to these competitions anymore?  Why watch the fools on MMA? Pride? Seems to be a waste of money and time to me.  If I want to watch punks show off, I can always go to the 'hood. 8)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 08:21:23 AM by cirillo »
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 10:11:44 AM »
I can't think of one current UFC champ that isn't really humble and respectful.  We can go down the list of all the fighters if you like, but I think that the true "professional" fighters outnumber the thugs.  I can really only think of maybe 5 or 6 that are true okole.  There are some that are generally good guys but have a bad moment.  The majority are classy in and out of the ring.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 11:27:45 AM »
Is it safe to mention that I watch MMA for the same reason as I train in MA? For the fighting. If I wanted to watch a show where I witnessed the power of humility and respect overcome, then I'd just watch a Karate Kid marathon. I don't care if they spit on each other at the staredown and crack momma jokes, as long as they put on one hell of a fight.
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
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BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 02:50:43 PM »
Since I have never met any of the MMA 'champs', I can't speak to how they actually are as people.  All I can talk about is what I have seen on TV recently.  A lot of acting and posturing... not a lot of humility.  The fans seem to love it (just as many people love Professional Wrestling for the show... not my thing).

As for watching a fight, do I really need to say anything about situations with rules and how useful they are?

I guess it is just our tendency to enjoy car crashes and violence, eh?  Once in a while somebody really exceptionally good comes along with boxing or MMA and they are worth looking at (Ali for example, I could watch his fights a million times and not be bored), but in general... yawn, boring technique. I've seen more interesting fights on the street.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 03:24:03 PM »
Since I have never met any of the MMA 'champs', I can't speak to how they actually are as people.  All I can talk about is what I have seen on TV recently.  A lot of acting and posturing... not a lot of humility.  The fans seem to love it (just as many people love Professional Wrestling for the show... not my thing).

The faux appearance of bad blood between fighters fills seats. It's sad but true. Welcome to America. Kinda why I always liked Pride crowds better. They understand the fight game, and hardly boo fighters who go out there and put it on the line. To be honest UFC crowds are what get on my nerves....as soon as the action slows, or the fight hits the ground the booing begins. Bunch of clueless rednecks. Hopefully the aquisition of Pride fighters will bring out a classier and knowledgeable crowd.

Quote
As for watching a fight, do I really need to say anything about situations with rules and how useful they are?

Ugh..... I suppose seeing the most honed fighters and martial artists in the world testing their skills against each other in the most open and free environment legally permitted in the country is just a show of unrealistic pansy fighting.

Excuse me while I go delude myself into believing that the existence of concrete, and the ability to stick my fingers in someones eyes, bite or kick their groin is going to save me from a mugging of even a low level amateur MMA fighter. After all we know they are nothing but lowlife classless thugs who don't bow before fighting, so we should watch out for them on the street. I hear they enjoy kicking babies and stealing old ladies purses.

Quote
I guess it is just our tendency to enjoy car crashes and violence, eh?  Once in a while somebody really exceptionally good comes along with boxing or MMA and they are worth looking at (Ali for example, I could watch his fights a million times and not be bored), but in general... yawn, boring technique. I've seen more interesting fights on the street.

I personally like to armchair quarterback myself when I watch MMA. Everytime the fight hits the mat, I point out to all my buddies how the guy on top could so easily grab the other guys groin and twist it for all it's worth! Or when they clinch up, I could probably bite the other guys ear off. Where's your BJJ Black Belt NOW Nogueira!? You got no ear! My friends think I'm so deadly.....yeah I am deadly.....for the street man....it's all about the street.
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 04:41:16 PM »
My friends think I'm so deadly.....yeah I am deadly.....for the street man....it's all about the street.

Spelled it wrong.  D34dlY 5TR33t5!!!!
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 06:07:54 PM »
Excuse me while I go delude myself into believing that the existence of concrete, and the ability to stick my fingers in someones eyes, bite or kick their groin is going to save me from a mugging of even a low level amateur MMA fighter. After all we know they are nothing but lowlife classless thugs who don't bow before fighting, so we should watch out for them on the street. I hear they enjoy kicking babies and stealing old ladies purses.

I believe Sifu Cirillo makes a good point that shouldn't be so casually dismissed.  I agree that MMA fights are the best/most realistic sport event out there.  However, it is still a sport, and while a very useful way to develop your self-defense skills, it is not the be-all end-all.  One has to learn to fight without rules (within the limits of safety, at least during training...).  Groin kicks are a great example, because you can train them simply by wearing a cup during class and making them allowed 100% of the time (at up to medium contact), as WHKD and I believe almost of all the larger Kaju community does.  In general, it's an easy target to strike since most people don't protect it well (another reason to train it), and it obviously generates a lot of pain when landed.  Training in your street clothes, training outside, and training in dark environments are all great examples Sifu Cirillo has mentioned that should be incorporated in martial arts training that isn't always found in sports
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Under GM Al Dacascos
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Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
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Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 06:11:45 PM »
lol. Great post NYKempo.

The only thing we don't agree on is whether those fighters in UFC, Pride and so on are even close to the "most honed fighters and martial artists in the world".  Maybe in that particular ring with those rules, but certainly not in the world.  That is just advertising from the UFC, Pride, etc.  I don't buy it. 8)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline guarded

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 10:34:41 PM »
Next to facing death on a battlefield or facing death anywhere for that matter, these guys are going into one of the most intense situations a person encounters.  I think in these situations a person does what he has to and acts like he has to in order to either distract himself or build a wall of deceptive confidence to either make himself feel better or shake his opponents confidence.  These guys aren't point fighting or sparring.  They are gonna try to beat the other guy into submission.  FIGHTING.  It is also "entertainment".  Guys like Nick Diaz, Phil "The New York Badass" Baroni and Tank Abbott are great fighters and also put butts in the seats.  Styles make the fights.  But what is it that makes you like one fighter over another.  Quite often it is there personalities.  Anderson Silva is probably the most humble fighter you'll see.  He is also very aggressive and brutally dangerous.  I think you need them all in a sport like this.  If thier bahavior makes them look like idiots then thats something they or the people/school they represent have to deal with.  In this sport if you disrespect someone, you will pay eventually.  Just my humble opinion.
Jerry Guard
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 12:17:02 AM »
I believe Sifu Cirillo makes a good point that shouldn't be so casually dismissed.  I agree that MMA fights are the best/most realistic sport event out there.  However, it is still a sport, and while a very useful way to develop your self-defense skills, it is not the be-all end-all.  One has to learn to fight without rules (within the limits of safety, at least during training...).  Groin kicks are a great example, because you can train them simply by wearing a cup during class and making them allowed 100% of the time (at up to medium contact), as WHKD and I believe almost of all the larger Kaju community does.  In general, it's an easy target to strike since most people don't protect it well (another reason to train it), and it obviously generates a lot of pain when landed.  Training in your street clothes, training outside, and training in dark environments are all great examples Sifu Cirillo has mentioned that should be incorporated in martial arts training that isn't always found in sports

I'm going to save myself a lot of time, and just post an article that is more well written and more articulate than I am currently capable of doing. But I will say it is more irresponsible to casually dismiss the lessons MMA teaches us, than to dismiss the rhetoric of using what I'll call "foul tactics" in a fight. As they say without a foundation, you can't build a house. Dirty tactics are the final furnishings that you can do with or without.



Training to Fight / The Myth of Self Defense
By Luis Gutierrez

The debate about training for the street and training for sport never seems to end. I decided to make an individual link to handle this question since it so commonly arises and to prevent any misunderstandings about my intentions when it comes to ODMA, it's active philosophy or curriculum. The following is my opinion and simply that. Please feel free to contact me if you have anything to add but I hope my point has been made clear by the time you finish reading this page. I don't see what all the fuss is about but here goes…

My definition of what is combative sport and what is fighting is as follows: If both parties agree to fight under specific rules and regulations within a specific time frame, then it's a combative sport. If any one party does not wish to participate and / or is forced to at any given time or place, then it's a fight. The primary difference is what is being fought for and the reason why. One is a job or a sport for money, honor, or prestige, and the other is sheer survival for life, well being and / or liberty. One entails specific rules of engagement; the other's only rule is no rules.

How this influences me and my role running ODMA is as follows: I train for many reasons. Self-defense is not one of them but simply a by product of them all. I believe that one on one hand to hand "fights" of honor only occur in the ring. I am not concerned with what worked in Feudal Japan nor what was honor once upon a time in a more "innocent" America. In my life, I have yet to ever see, read of, or hear of someone being attacked or robbed honorably. (Granted, I have seen a great deal of theft in boxing.) I am 34 years old with a loving family, rent, bills, debts and every working American's dreams to succeed. Responsibility, more so than any martial art could ever dream of, has readily allowed me to walk away from challenges to my ego. Now, do you actually think for a moment that a threat (not a challenge) to me or my loved ones would have anything to do whether or not I trained martial arts?! The will to action at that moment would have nothing to do with any confidence or techniques acquired through the martial arts. None! If I were alone and attacked I would rely on my track and field ability. If I'm with loved ones… the pain tolerance, endurance, power and ferocity given by God at that moment is a force of nature and has nothing to do with civilization's fighting arts. My training? Against being outnumbered or dealing with a weapon? No style will save you, only your wits. It has much more to do with your psychology and your will to survive and protect life than any manufactured technique or style designed supposedly to end it.

The myth of street fighting: They seldom ever occur on a street. Try instead, bars, clubs and places serving alcohol and selling a whole lot of mood and attitude. These ego-based displays of physical prowess usually occur around locations where single people go in numbers to socialize. Obviously mix sex and drugs together with a large number of single people and those not getting any of the first and too much of the second will be very frustrated. When you visit an establishment where the ultimate goal of most intoxicated patrons by midnight is to fight or fornicate, your chances of feeling the fight or flight response, a boot or bottle to the head, and even getting arrested is a good one. I practically lived and worked in clubs from age 17 through 28. Avoid them and you avoid 99% of the so called street fights.

The reality of assaults: Real fights are actually assaults. They can and do occur everywhere and at any time. In fact, unlike the scenarios above, statistically most assaults occur near or at your home. There are no stances, deflections, blocks or parries against strikes that come in the form of multiple led projectiles. Knife fights are called assassinations in the real world. The only knife ever involved is the one "suddenly" inside you. Movies would have it that every criminal places a gun at your stomach before making a long drawn out sales pitch or presents and twirls a knife in front of you before lunging in like an Olympic fencer. This is not the case at all. Criminals are scared too and seldom get close until they know you are secured, this at times means shot or dead. The knife is felt and not seen as it often comes from a blind side or from someone other than you are dealing with. Muggers and rapists use stun guns and pepper sprays as well as the ladies they attack. Assaults are predatory by nature and if they do not involve weapons, involve larger numbers, or at the least a much larger or stronger assailant than victim. Against these odds once they occur, no hand to hand martial art stands much of a chance and survival is more in the realm of psychological tactics, luck, and your ability gage the best moment to escape.

The grappling arts imply: "most fights end up on the ground…take them there"
The striking arts imply: "all fights start standing up…keep them there"
The mixed martial arts imply: "any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere" Coast to Coast Crime Statistics state: 10 out of 10 assaults involve a weapon(s), being outnumbered, being physically outclassed or any combination of the above.

Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around.

"Be like water…then just add dirt."
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2007, 08:37:10 AM »
There are quite a few problems with the arguments made by the article.  It is pretty obviously a "sale".  I am only going to respond with one statement that comes from other people, but I believe in "You will fight the way you train".

If you train high kicks all the time and never train low kicks, that is what you will reflexively do in a fight (your low kicks will also be slower too), despite how stupid it is to kick higher than the knee.

If you train closed fist techniques (with gloves on, in other words), that is what you will attempt in a fight, rather than "suddenly" being able to use gouges.

I say, train all the stuff, movement, grappling, proper timing, angles, finishes, but with the gouges, throat chops, already incorporated (in other words, almost all open hand techniques).  You will be able to apply them better and faster than somebody who doesn't train those techniques 90% of the time.  If you train 90% punches, you will fight 90% punches.  If you train 90% gouges and chops, you will fight 90% gouges and chops.  If you train to hit to soft targets, you will hit to soft targets... and so on.  By the way, most of the soft targets are pretty small, hitting them requires precision, good technique, speed and practice... not strength.  Much more appropriate for the average Joe or Jane that doesn't happen to be a 900 pound gorilla.  8)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 08:48:04 AM by cirillo »
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX