Author Topic: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA  (Read 19577 times)

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2007, 09:54:43 AM »
I'm going to save myself a lot of time, and just post an article that is more well written and more articulate than I am currently capable of doing. But I will say it is more irresponsible to casually dismiss the lessons MMA teaches us, than to dismiss the rhetoric of using what I'll call "foul tactics" in a fight. As they say without a foundation, you can't build a house. Dirty tactics are the final furnishings that you can do with or without.

As I mentioned previously, I don't disagree with the value of the lessons MMA teaches us at all.  In regards to dirty fighting, I am not a 900 lb gorilla  In a self-defense situation I am going to be as dirty as possible.  It's not the final furnishings of my training, it's integral to it. 
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2007, 10:29:36 AM »
Micky I agree with you about respect in MMA it should be there and for the most part that is a product of our teachers.  Much like children that constantly misbehave in school, it is who taught them that is usually the problem.  I learned respect from teachers that deserve it and taught it and I pass that to my students.  My students also are smart enough to understand, a fight in a ring or cage etc,,, is a respectful situation, a street fight is not. 
The article posted by James I would have to say has basically no bearing on how I think.....just to much I don't agree with to comment.
 I have boxed since before I liked girls....so it goes way back and I'll tell you it is much harder to hit someone with a 16 oz glove then an eye poke.
 The weight of your hand, size of the glove, that huge thing coming at your face to block all comes into play.......
  Anyway if someone spars at my school and doesn't have respect, we bring respect to them.....anyone who knows me knows what I mean.......Peace[/b.
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2007, 12:17:33 PM »
Micky I agree with you about respect in MMA it should be there and for the most part that is a product of our teachers.  Much like children that constantly misbehave in school, it is who taught them that is usually the problem.  I learned respect from teachers that deserve it and taught it and I pass that to my students.  My students also are smart enough to understand, a fight in a ring or cage etc,,, is a respectful situation, a street fight is not. 
The article posted by James I would have to say has basically no bearing on how I think.....just to much I don't agree with to comment.
 I have boxed since before I liked girls....so it goes way back and I'll tell you it is much harder to hit someone with a 16 oz glove then an eye poke.
 The weight of your hand, size of the glove, that huge thing coming at your face to block all comes into play.......
  Anyway if someone spars at my school and doesn't have respect, we bring respect to them.....anyone who knows me knows what I mean.......Peace[/b.

I think I see what you mean even if you only elaborated with the boxing glove issue, and at least on that I'd have to agree at least in how he worded it. I think what Mr. Gutierrez was implying though wasn't landing a solid shot on the jaw, but rather just connecting period -as opposed to the guy who thinks that he's going to sidestep a punch of a moving opponent and land a perfectly placed "mortal man" type finger jab right into the guys eye.

Quote from:  Posted by: cirillo
There are quite a few problems with the arguments made by the article.  It is pretty obviously a "sale".  I am only going to respond with one statement that comes from other people, but I believe in "You will fight the way you train".

If you train high kicks all the time and never train low kicks, that is what you will reflexively do in a fight (your low kicks will also be slower too), despite how stupid it is to kick higher than the knee.

If you train closed fist techniques (with gloves on, in other words), that is what you will attempt in a fight, rather than "suddenly" being able to use gouges.

I say, train all the stuff, movement, grappling, proper timing, angles, finishes, but with the gouges, throat chops, already incorporated (in other words, almost all open hand techniques).  You will be able to apply them better and faster than somebody who doesn't train those techniques 90% of the time.  If you train 90% punches, you will fight 90% punches.  If you train 90% gouges and chops, you will fight 90% gouges and chops.  If you train to hit to soft targets, you will hit to soft targets... and so on.  By the way, most of the soft targets are pretty small, hitting them requires precision, good technique, speed and practice... not strength.  Much more appropriate for the average Joe or Jane that doesn't happen to be a 900 pound gorilla.  Cool

I think the main point I wanted to get across was that you can't skimp on active live training just because you're afraid of building alleged bad habits that come from friendly sparring and rolling. Putting down what professional MMA fighters can accomplish as only useful in "sport situations" is just plain wrong in my opinion. What's to stop a fighter from groin striking from the clinch, or slamming his assailant on the concrete that I am supposed to be so afraid to be grappling on (and then doing his best rendition of riverdance on that guys cranium). There is nothing stopping him, and yes you fight how you train, and if you don't train and instead theorize about stuff you can't train then the guy who does train is going to be going home in the cop car while you take the ambulance.

I suppose my main issue is because I used to cop out a lot on the "Well I'll do whatever I can to survive, and I'll break every 'rule' there is to come out on top" mantra, when really all I was doing was making excuses for my lack of ability. Sure I'd learn the basics of grappling such as how to pass the guard or sweep a mounted opponent. But then I just said, "well that's enough, now I know how to get back to my feet and after that he's going to be eating a whole lot of fist and foot." I figured that it was a waste to learn all of that "sport grappling" because a) what were the chances of me finding such a foe on the street, and b) I already knew how to get up, and once I'm on my feet and striking then obviously such a grappler would be doomed and c) Grappling is so gay ;) But after about a few dozen submissions at the hands of my crappling friend (crappling = learning grappling from instructional videos) as well as a handful of situations of being dropped to the mat because of my lack of capability of adapting to REAL boxing punches with a tight cover and head movement (2 or 3 ending in full out KO's....so there goes a few brain cells I suppose) I decided to stop talking and start training.

So with that said I apologize and please excuse me if I've jumped the gun in making assumptions about what you do, but from what I've seen you're saying and doing the exact same thing I did. And that would make me a sad, sad panda
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 12:20:04 PM by NYKempo »
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2007, 12:54:08 PM »
I understand your fears James, and share them, but I think in this case they are unfounded.  WHKD (and all of Kaju for that matter) are all about "aliveness;" it's a fundamental part of the "you'll fight as you train" mentality.  In my classes, we go as alive as we can, given the techniques involved and the skill level of the students.  In the beginning that means light contact, light sparring, etc.  When black belts spar each other, it tends to be full contact, except to the face (sometimes).  Groin strikes (a typical dirty move) are legal, and eye pokes are simulated by going to the forehead, but everyone knows when you landed one.  When we grapple in my club, small joint manipulation and pinching are allowed, except when the drill prohibits it for other training purposes.

As for the basics of grappling, what is necessary, etc, we are having a discussion of that right now, on these boards, here:http://www.kajukenbocafe.com/smf/index.php?topic=2967.0
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2007, 12:54:35 PM »
At least we completely agree on one thing "...stop talking and start training."

I guess you just forgot that everybody here is Kajukenbo.  Pretty much all we do is live training... as much and as realistic as we can get (without having to wait too long to heal... at least not more than a week or so, I hate that).  Can you see me smiling?  That's what I love... not watching it, but doing it... in the best way I can figure out how, making my own rules as I go based on how and when I get hurt.  I have been doing it for over 30 years... so maybe I learned something and met some really great martial artists in the process... Prof. Emperado, Al Dacascos, Art Dacascos, Ben Dacascos, Bill Owens, Sid Asuncion, Eddie Pidoy, Al DelaCruz, George Iverson, Teddy Sotelo, Emil Bautista... nah, I don't need to go on.  That is only a short list and doesn't include the people I met throughout China, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines, so maybe you shouldn't be surprised when I am not impressed by the UFC.
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Offline Wado

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2007, 01:09:11 PM »
I thought one of the reasons for strikes and attacks to vital areas was that you get the most bang for the buck. In other words you don't have to get a good, full power technique in there to have it impact the opponent. Even a light rake of the eyes can have effect.

Since you don't have to apply full power, strikes to vital areas like the throat and eyes are very easy to hit with IF THE TARGET IS OPEN.

Since these aren't full power strikes, they aren't going to do much more than stun someone, if you are lucky enough to even do that, most of the time, IMHO. They are far from finishing moves. You need to follow up with something that will finish the job... the basics.

I posted this on a different forum, but I think it fits along the idea that there are points for self-defense when it goes beyond just dealing with the immediate threat but you have to deal with an ongoing threat, and that takes much more depth of training, experience, and fighting spirit than something that ends after the first few punches. I coin the phrase, "self-offense" for self-defense.

Quote
My opinion of submissions for self-defense is the quicker the better.

My opinion of submission grappling skills beyond what is necessary for self-defense (hit and run more or less) is that submission grappling is self-OFFENSE, not so much self-defense. What I mean is that we all know or come to realize that there are some very stubborn and some very aggressive people out in this world that just won't quit. If the attacker is in a frame of mind that they aren't going to quit until they get what they want, you may have no choice than to be offensive to them and take them out or basically convince them of the error in their ways using very STRONG negotiation methods...

If you are unable to stop the enemy by knocking them out, and running away only causes them to chase you down and hurt you more... grappling is designed to shut them down and take them out with chokes, breaks, and submissions.

Self-offense when you need it. IMHO.
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2007, 01:22:37 PM »
At least we completely agree on one thing "...stop talking and start training."

I guess you just forgot that everybody here is Kajukenbo.  Pretty much all we do is live training... as much and as realistic as we can get (without having to wait too long to heal... at least not more than a week or so, I hate that).  Can you see me smiling?  That's what I love... not watching it, but doing it... in the best way I can figure out how, making my own rules as I go based on how and when I get hurt.  I have been doing it for over 30 years... so maybe I learned something and met some really great martial artists in the process... Prof. Emperado, Al Dacascos, Art Dacascos, Ben Dacascos, Bill Owens, Sid Asuncion, Eddie Pidoy, Al DelaCruz, George Iverson, Teddy Sotelo, Emil Bautista... nah, I don't need to go on.  That is only a short list and doesn't include the people I met throughout China, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines, so maybe you shouldn't be surprised when I am not impressed by the UFC.

As I said, I apologize for any assumptions. But I was just going on what was written, and that list you made of how to tell if you are training for sport, seemed to go contrary to everything I've seen and heard of Kaju. For the record, dirty or foul tactics should be in everyones SD game IMO, but to use them as replacements for training more solid foundational techniques is something that is rampant in martial arts, and I'm guilty as I had been one of those people.
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Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2007, 01:37:21 PM »
Wado, the main thing I disagree on in your post is "Since these aren't full power strikes, they aren't going to do much more than stun someone, if you are lucky enough to even do that, most of the time, IMHO. They are far from finishing moves. You need to follow up with something that will finish the job... the basics."

I have thought long and hard on that issue.  What strikes can you REALLY be sure will finish the opponent no matter what drug they are on?  It is tough considering some of the stories you hear from police officers regarding large opponents on drugs.  Most punches won't do it... for example, I have never been knocked out, though I have suffered head injuries involving my skull completely opening up... ha, long story... but I can't tell you the number of bones in my face that have been broken (soccer, martial arts, wrestling)... still no KO.  X-rays look like a jigsaw puzzle... anyway, some people are just hard to knock out, that's all there is to it.  You can hit 'em all you want.

Now, broken neck... that's tough to come back from and usually results in nearly immediate loss of motor skills.  Spinal injuries can also similarly work, but not as easy to do.
Broken knee... drops everybody on the ground at least... OK, maybe they will hop at me.
Other breaks are good too, but they don't finish it, they just help (arms, fingers, nose, foot).
The eye?  Well if you gouge deeply, any physician will tell you, everybody passes out when you hit the optical nerve in the back of the eye.... sorry I am not talking about light force strikes... I never was... just to soft targets... who said I would be soft?
OK now, what can somebody do if they can't breath? crushed wind-pipe?  Well, they can last a few seconds, maybe even a minute if they are really tough, but pretty much game over.  Nice thing about this one, the person doesn't even die right away, you might be able to save them after they drop, if you knew how and wanted to.

All the other techniques are distractions for me, these are the goals.  Luckily they are in different quadrants, so it is hard to cover all of them while trying to fight.

I am sure there might be others that I haven't fully considered as finishing techniques.  According to pressure point people, there are a lot more.  I don't count on those, since they don't work on me (OK, the floating rib one might work, but I consider that a hit to the heart, it has to be at the correct angle).

I would certainly be interested if other people have input on that topic.  It is at least important, more important than the UFC. lol. 8)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2007, 01:40:41 PM »
By the way, James, fine... you're off the hook.  I can see how it was misunderstood. Gone and forgotten.  8)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2007, 01:42:43 PM »
Just for the info, blew my ACL and tore the medial meniscus and still finished sparring. I trained and ran 1-2 hrs per day for a year before finally getting surgery....The knee hurt but didn't stop the fight or drop me at all.......and I think many times that's the case....just depends on the person and the innervation of the area.......
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Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2007, 01:50:32 PM »
Now, broken neck... that's tough to come back from and usually results in nearly immediate loss of motor skills.  Spinal injuries can also similarly work, but not as easy to do.
Broken knee... drops everybody on the ground at least... OK, maybe they will hop at me.
Other breaks are good too, but they don't finish it, they just help (arms, fingers, nose, foot).
The eye?  Well if you gouge deeply, any physician will tell you, everybody passes out when you hit the optical nerve in the back of the eye.... sorry I am not talking about light force strikes... I never was... just to soft targets... who said I would be soft?
OK now, what can somebody do if they can't breath? crushed wind-pipe?  Well, they can last a few seconds, maybe even a minute if they are really tough, but pretty much game over.  Nice thing about this one, the person doesn't even die right away, you might be able to save them after they drop, if you knew how and wanted to.

Quote
I guess you just forgot that everybody here is Kajukenbo.  Pretty much all we do is live training...

Exactly how do you train this in a live manner?  Maybe YOUR version of live and mine are two different things.  I asked Goldsmith to put some video on youtube, but maybe this would be the perfect opportunity for everyone to put video up there. 

Please give me some examples of YOU or your students training these techniques in a live fashion.  Live = against a totally resisting opponent.  Not some compliant stuff that you drill like half of the videos on Kajukenbo that are on the internent.  In youtube, there is WHKD, and you have gung fu forms, and point sparring.  Give us some shots of all these eye gouges, neck breaks, etc.  I'd love to see them so I can stop being impressed with the level of competition that the UFC provides.
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Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2007, 01:57:31 PM »
Woops.  I forgot to add the dreaded knee strike in there as well!  Get some of those shots will you?
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Offline Wado

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2007, 02:03:51 PM »
Wado, the main thing I disagree on in your post is "Since these aren't full power strikes, they aren't going to do much more than stun someone, if you are lucky enough to even do that, most of the time, IMHO. They are far from finishing moves. You need to follow up with something that will finish the job... the basics."

I have thought long and hard on that issue.  What strikes can you REALLY be sure will finish the opponent no matter what drug they are on?  It is tough considering some of the stories you hear from police officers regarding large opponents on drugs.  Most punches won't do it... for example, I have never been knocked out, though I have suffered head injuries involving my skull completely opening up... ha, long story... but I can't tell you the number of bones in my face that have been broken (soccer, martial arts, wrestling)... still no KO.  X-rays look like a jigsaw puzzle... anyway, some people are just hard to knock out, that's all there is to it.  You can hit 'em all you want.

Now, broken neck... that's tough to come back from and usually results in nearly immediate loss of motor skills.  Spinal injuries can also similarly work, but not as easy to do.
Broken knee... drops everybody on the ground at least... OK, maybe they will hop at me.
Other breaks are good too, but they don't finish it, they just help (arms, fingers, nose, foot).
The eye?  Well if you gouge deeply, any physician will tell you, everybody passes out when you hit the optical nerve in the back of the eye.... sorry I am not talking about light force strikes... I never was... just to soft targets... who said I would be soft?
OK now, what can somebody do if they can't breath? crushed wind-pipe?  Well, they can last a few seconds, maybe even a minute if they are really tough, but pretty much game over.  Nice thing about this one, the person doesn't even die right away, you might be able to save them after they drop, if you knew how and wanted to.

All the other techniques are distractions for me, these are the goals.  Luckily they are in different quadrants, so it is hard to cover all of them while trying to fight.

I am sure there might be others that I haven't fully considered as finishing techniques.  According to pressure point people, there are a lot more.  I don't count on those, since they don't work on me (OK, the floating rib one might work, but I consider that a hit to the heart, it has to be at the correct angle).

I would certainly be interested if other people have input on that topic.  It is at least important, more important than the UFC. lol. 8)

I agree that you can't count on anything, that's one of the reasons I prefer some of the direct and simple striking taught in Kajukenbo. Always strike or cut THROUGH the target. This is supplemented with more complex striking methods later on, but the basic gross motor skills are emphasized first, IME.

I've experienced that those very skilled can "hit you anywhere" and it hurts. I don't believe that they are actually hitting anywhere, however, but as part of their skill they are matching the strike to the target with good technique. The net result is that it feels like you are being hit by a truck no matter how effortless and easy they make it look.

Now many people have a very hard time hitting with any real power and still maintaining mobility (because they end up missing a lot or hitting a bunch of nothing). You might see like years ago when I was in karate, I could hit hard but it was at the cost of my mobility, as soon as I started to going at it with a moving resisting opponent, they were too quick and I sacrificed power to gain speed and accuracy. What helped me in this area was boxing and Aikido training. I learned to hit moving targets with power rather than just static targets. Boxing for the punching and footwork, Aikido for the attacking the kuzushi (weakness in balance).

Now the striking of vital areas is very tough if you have a moving target because those areas are rather small targets. You have the choice of a fast pre-emptive strike to the eyes or throat or groin or knee, but other than that you are going to be hitting with gross motor movements which don't have a lot of accuracy in general.

So the attacks to vitals can be combined with gross motor movements. For instance, I can palm smash to the face, then with a flick of the wrist I can rake the eyes. This is particularly good if they are wearing glasses as the rake will rip those glasses right off their face. Or I can palm to the chest so that my finger go to the throat, a press with the fingers can invoke the gagging reflex. I can kick to the groin but kick through the small intestines with the ball of my foot, this can cause them to lean forward, breaking their balance at the hips. For example.

IMHO, except against a static target or as a pre-emptive strike, the attacking to vital areas is done as a combination of a gross motor attack with a finer more accurate attack to the vital area.

Hope I am making sense.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 02:12:55 PM by Wado »
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Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2007, 02:14:35 PM »
Hm... Badsifu, I am surprised by your skepticism and lack of respect, which are obvious by your insistence that I prove myself to you.

Well, I can't help but agree with you, once again... seeing is believing.  Suffice it to say for now, until I can figure out a better way to get it across to you, that in WHKD we (started by GM Dacascos and carried on by his students) have been working hard on developing drills that allow you to practice techniques in as relevant a fashion as possible without actually killing your opponent.  If you go back, I had a similar discussion on this with Gints about how to work eye pokes.  The first step is throwing out the approach of just punching, the second step is coming up with training methods that you think simulate the real thing.  Ah... memories of many a hard poke to the eyebrow or to protective goggles and my great thanks that the same force was not applied to my actual eye.  This type of training is a large part of what WHKD is, and it has become obvious to me that many other people in Kajukenbo are searching for similar types of methods for live training.

Rather than just handling something new to you with such skepticism, why not think about it a little bit and come up with some of your own live training methods for these techniques?  I am sure you can do it, you are a smart guy.
 8)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 02:19:21 PM by cirillo »
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2007, 02:25:32 PM »
Ya know how I worked out the practicality of eye-pokes? I put on goggles and fought MMA-style (all ranges permitted) to see if the person ever could touch the goggles. Once I found they could, I took off the goggles and told them to try and jam their finger in my eye while rolling, and I would just clench my eye shut. Know what I found? Posturing up and clenching your eyes shut stops eye gouging, and anyone above white belt (Blue+) is nearly impossible to eyegouge, because you're too busy trying to stop your arm from breaking when you reach to do it, and if you get to a solid enough position to enact those tactics, then you mighta as well just punch the guy cause it takes less precision and works a hell of a lot better.
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Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"