Author Topic: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA  (Read 19585 times)

Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2007, 02:28:48 PM »
Wado, I like the way you are thinking.  I agree, though with practice and proper technique, those little wrist flicks, or as we call them and others like them, saturating techniques, can have enough force to easily do many of the  finishing techniques.  I think they need to be trained though, they aren't as natural or quite as easy to apply as a punch.  The targets can be set up with a number of other things, but once available, they can be hit quite hard, even as an intermediate strike. :)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2007, 02:36:47 PM »
Lack of respect.  I haven't heard that one around here before.  I am sure I will get some Professor or Grand Master calling me up on the phone in a few hours yelling at me.  But if you can't speak your mind to your family...then what good is your family eh!?  I try to call it like I see it.  If you don't like my views or opinions, there is a feature on this board that you can use that will set my posts to ignore and you won't have to read a thing I write. 

The stuff you are talking about isn't new to me.  I no longer spend a great deal of time on it because unless you are out picking fights in bars, you don't get to do this kind of training with any reality, regardless of whatever goggles you are wearing.  The fact is that I don't put much value in faith.  I am a skeptic.  You are going to have to prove what you claim to me if you want me to respect your point of view.  The way you can do that is by showing me that method which you describe earlier is trainable and is as effective as you think it is (which by the way, Professor Bono has already stated the knee strike wasn't so badass.)  Until then, it is just a bunch of words with nothing to back it up.
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2007, 02:41:33 PM »
um....*raises his hand* I was the one who said I wore goggles to train/test my theories.....but thanks for crushing my pride....

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Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2007, 02:51:13 PM »
Then Badsifu, we'll just call it a disagreement among family.  I just hope that my experience and background actually mean something, without having to back it up.  Often that is more than enough, but I certainly appreciate the skepticism approach.  Though I do assume you respect my primary instructors, Al Dacascos and Bill Owens, so I would have assumed that you would respect the the methods that they taught me.  Without having to back it up.  If you are still skeptical, I can bet that GM Dacascos would be happy to work with you on setting up a demonstration.  He can show you in person what we are talking about.  I can contact him for you, if you like?  I think Sifu Owens isn't too far from where you are, is he?  Have you ever visited his school?  I am sure he has some black belts that could demo this type of training for you.  Since you are the one that needs proof, I suggest you do the work.

I think the problem is with whether or not you feel that these techniques can be trained.  I have trained a lot of different methods and feel that they can be.  That is my opinion and that is why I continue to work with instructors that work with these techniques.  I am sorry that my approach leads to your skepticism, but I have nothing to prove.  I think I have spent too much time on these posts as it is. 8)

Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline Wado

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2007, 03:03:19 PM »
Ya know how I worked out the practicality of eye-pokes? I put on goggles and fought MMA-style (all ranges permitted) to see if the person ever could touch the goggles. Once I found they could, I took off the goggles and told them to try and jam their finger in my eye while rolling, and I would just clench my eye shut. Know what I found? Posturing up and clenching your eyes shut stops eye gouging, and anyone above white belt (Blue+) is nearly impossible to eyegouge, because you're too busy trying to stop your arm from breaking when you reach to do it, and if you get to a solid enough position to enact those tactics, then you mighta as well just punch the guy cause it takes less precision and works a hell of a lot better.

Yeah, you always got to protect yourself. Good points.

I think maybe we ought to get away from limiting ourselves to eye goughes. My understanding is to "attack the eyes" (metsubishi) which means something like take their sight away. This can be literally anything that causes them to lose focus or sight.

If you are distracted by the "eye gough", you might not be defending against the knife to your heart, so to speak.

I don't think it is all that great to treat techniques such as an eye gough or a kick to the knee in isolation... I think this is actually a problem. Many self-defense courses keep things very simple, such as a kick to the groin, a kick to the knee, a spear to the eyes... but then they say, do that and run away. 

Simple is good but that is just too simple for martial arts. We are building up a delivery system in martial arts, the various techniques are like tools (maybe as badsifu said, we need a wrecking ball and a sleghammer, etc. because these are tools for destruction). But the techniques are only as good as the ability to deliver it effectively.

The argument for MMA type training methods is that is develops delivery system for punching, kicking, grappling, etc. It develops them in an alive enviroment for kicking, punching, clinching, and ground "ranges." 

I think we can mostly agree that it is the same delivery system whether it is in MMA or in Kajukenbo or WHKD. What varies is the techniques and purpose or intent of where those techniques will be used.

Does not matter if it is sport or street, it is the same delivery system. I agree with NYKempo that we should not take shortcuts and skip good solid training of an effective delivery system.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 03:07:05 PM by Wado »
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Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2007, 03:09:25 PM »
Just because my mom is a lawyer, it doesn't make me one.

Then Badsifu, we'll just call it a disagreement among family.  I just hope that my experience and background actually mean something, without having to back it up.  Often that is more than enough, but I certainly appreciate the skepticism approach.  Though I do assume you respect my primary instructors, Al Dacascos and Bill Owens, so I would have assumed that you would respect the the methods that they taught me.  Without having to back it up.  If you are still skeptical, I can bet that GM Dacascos would be happy to work with you on setting up a demonstration.  He can show you in person what we are talking about.  I can contact him for you, if you like?  I think Sifu Owens isn't too far from where you are, is he?  Have you ever visited his school?  I am sure he has some black belts that could demo this type of training for you.  Since you are the one that needs proof, I suggest you do the work.

I think the problem is with whether or not you feel that these techniques can be trained.  I have trained a lot of different methods and feel that they can be.  That is my opinion and that is why I continue to work with instructors that work with these techniques.  I am sorry that my approach leads to your skepticism, but I have nothing to prove.  I think I have spent too much time on these posts as it is. 8)


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Offline Wado

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2007, 03:15:10 PM »
Wado, I like the way you are thinking.  I agree, though with practice and proper technique, those little wrist flicks, or as we call them and others like them, saturating techniques, can have enough force to easily do many of the  finishing techniques.  I think they need to be trained though, they aren't as natural or quite as easy to apply as a punch.  The targets can be set up with a number of other things, but once available, they can be hit quite hard, even as an intermediate strike. :)

I like that term "satuation techniques."

I would like to stress again, that these technique are best when combined or integrated with techniques that utilize gross motor movements for power and speed. 

One of my favorites is a backfist strike to the top of the jawline (done with forward momentum) that rolls into a forearm strike to the chin/neck. The first is gross motor movement combine with more detailed or complex movement. Can even continue this by hooking the fingers on the back of the jaw and turning their head down into a knee to the face and strike to the back of the neck/brain stem.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 03:17:54 PM by Wado »
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Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2007, 03:17:57 PM »
Badsifu, You questioned the methods, that means you are questioning that they exist.  I tell you to go to the source, you change the subject... strange. 

You didn't question me on my skill, you questioned whether you could train this stuff.  I say, if you really want to know how, go to the men that taught me, they are some of the best at it that I know.  Otherwise, you are just asking me if I can fight.... that's a funny question.  You could always ask my instructors... they know.  Give 'em a call.  Sifu Doug Jones was one of my main training partners in Oakland, why don't you ask him? He is close to you too. GM Teddy Sotelo saw my black belt test in Oakland, why don't you ask him?  You will get your answer and then maybe we can be done with it. 8)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2007, 03:20:10 PM »
They aren't making the claims.  YOU are.  THe onus probandi does not rest with them, but with you.  I don't go around the planet telling everyone how badass I am and then when asked to prove it, point to my instructors and say "Well, go see them."

What kind of cop out is that?

Badsifu, You questioned the methods, that means you are questioning that they exist.  I tell you to go to the source, you change the subject... strange. 

You didn't question me on my skill, you questioned whether you could train this stuff.  I say, if you really want to know how, go to the men that taught me, they are some of the best at it that I know.  Otherwise, you are just asking me if I can fight.... that's a funny question.  You could always ask my instructors... they know.  Give 'em a call.  Sifu Doug Jones was one of my main training partners in Oakland, why don't you ask him? He is close to you too. GM Teddy Sotelo saw my black belt test in Oakland, why don't you ask him?  You will get your answer and then maybe we can be done with it. 8)
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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2007, 03:25:47 PM »
With the large number of Kajukenbo practitioners on our planet, and the fact that KajukenboCafe is a well known resource, I've always wondered why there was so little participation from many.  Now I understand. ???

Offline Wado

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2007, 03:30:34 PM »
They aren't making the claims.  YOU are.  THe onus probandi does not rest with them, but with you.  I don't go around the planet telling everyone how badass I am and then when asked to prove it, point to my instructors and say "Well, go see them."

What kind of cop out is that?

Badsifu, You questioned the methods, that means you are questioning that they exist.  I tell you to go to the source, you change the subject... strange. 

You didn't question me on my skill, you questioned whether you could train this stuff.  I say, if you really want to know how, go to the men that taught me, they are some of the best at it that I know.  Otherwise, you are just asking me if I can fight.... that's a funny question.  You could always ask my instructors... they know.  Give 'em a call.  Sifu Doug Jones was one of my main training partners in Oakland, why don't you ask him? He is close to you too. GM Teddy Sotelo saw my black belt test in Oakland, why don't you ask him?  You will get your answer and then maybe we can be done with it. 8)

The way I train these techniques is that I mostly don't train them alive. I will train with a compliant partner or in the air like kata or against the "slam man". I train through repetition, lots and lots of repeating the move.

In an alive situation, I just palm strike someone or jab them. Give them face protection and you can palm the face and just make sure that the fingers are lined up with the eyes like a cat's claw, then flick the wrist to rake the eyes.

Or jab to the eye and let it slip though so that the thumb goes into the eye.

It is not rocket science, I think these are the same dirty tricks used by boxers and such for longer than I would even know.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 03:32:57 PM by Wado »
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Offline cirillo

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2007, 03:38:13 PM »
lol, Badsifu, what are you talking about?  Did somebody claim to be a badass?  Anybody who would claim to be a badass must be an idiot.  I am sure there is somebody ready to knock them down.  If I ever claimed that, I apologize now.  All I did was criticize the UFC because I find the techniques boring... maybe I am confused? 8)
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline Mickey

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2007, 03:44:04 PM »
Everyone watch Ultimate Fight Night Tonight & The UFC this weekend...and remember this post! watch closely. Respect or lack their of?

Happy Easter Everyone....

Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2007, 03:53:57 PM »
lol, Badsifu, what are you talking about?  Did somebody claim to be a badass?  Anybody who would claim to be a badass must be an idiot.  I am sure there is somebody ready to knock them down.  If I ever claimed that, I apologize now.  All I did was criticize the UFC because I find the techniques boring... maybe I am confused? 8)

You made a claim that you train, like most Kajukenbo, in a live manner.  That you have neck breaks, eye gouges, and other vital strikes in your arsenal.  I asked you to give us some video of this alive training.  You told me that I was disrespectful for questioning your methods and the methods of WHKD.  I am only asking you to back up your statement.  Which, you have already admitted that you can't.  Wado at least comes clean and tells it like it is in regards to the vital strikes.  Which brings us ALL back to the original point of this thread.  The unique nature of fighting in the UFC.

See.  All happy campers once again.  And Toby...you gotta just smile and roll with it.  Like class.
Dan Tyrrell

Offline badsifu

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Re: SPORTSMANSHIP IN MMA
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2007, 04:03:46 PM »
Everyone watch Ultimate Fight Night Tonight & The UFC this weekend...and remember this post! watch closely. Respect or lack their of?

Happy Easter Everyone....

Me...no.  I will be looking for eye gouges and breaking of the knees!
Dan Tyrrell