Sport or Disipline?

[badsifu]

Regardless of the rank, I enjoy any educated discussion.  So by all means, keep it coming.  It is a lot of fun getting other people's opinions.  A lot of the time, I just stoke the fire anyway by playing the Devil's Advocate.

[Karazenpo]

   Very well said, Brother Gerry, I've been involved in one deadly force situation in nearly 27 years on the PD and I couldn't agree with you more.  Brother Joe

[Sifu Julian]

A downward back knuckle strike to the head!!!    Glad to hear you have progressed past that annoying technique.  It take a real man to admit that!  (This is my form of joking - OK?)

I will thank you that it took many years of counseling and therapy to be secure in my masculinity to admit that I won a tourney with that. Think of all the money I could have saved if I would have just blasted the guy with a power jab to the bridge of the nose?!?!?!

oh well, lessons learned!  

J.

[Mell]

Though I was poking fun with Sifi Julian, how many schools out there teach their students to fight for sport only?  The technique we have joked about is something I see at tournaments all the time.  I think we need to respect our selves and our systems to not stoop to those levels.  Point fight tricks will not save someones life in a real altercation.  

[Sifu Julian]

Though I was poking fun with Sifu Julian, how many schools out there teach their students to fight for sport only?  The technique we have joked about is something I see at tournaments all the time.  I think we need to respect our selves and our systems to not stoop to those levels.  Point fight tricks will not save someones life in a real altercation.  

I imagine you already know the answer I am going to give---but, we NEVER do anything like that. In fact, I no longer require my students to participate in a tourney.

Mell:  you are exactly right about stooping down for tourney's. One of the facts I left out of my original story was that I was almost disqualified from the tourney because of 2 "excessive contact" calls by the ref. Hey---he walked into a front thrust kick and a wide hooking ridgehand. Ain't my fault if he doesn't know how to block or duck!!!  

Sifu J.

[RAM]

Hey Mell,
This topic really has gone a loooooong way. More than anything we definitely know that Kajukenbo is a street effective martial discipline that has been proven time and time again. However you must realize the number of Kajukenbo schools competing in and running these tourneys. I used to compete alot in my younger days and back then it was just for fun. Never in forms though, just point fighting and self defense. As for self defense, I've never heard of judges downgrading for being to excessive in their attack or counter attack. Here's an experience I'd like to share with you...Once I was doing self defense in a tourney and I ended up with a tie for second place ( Keep in mind that due to the fact that we had a small circle jujitsu school in attendance all rings were padded with judo mats ). We were up for a tie breaker. When it was our turn, we folded up the mats that were in our ring and did our thing. I did an escape from a rear bear hug and a counter to a punch combination. The funny thing is that I messed up. I did my escape, and while countering his punches I accidentally kicked him in the throat. That kick to the throat was not supposed to connect. My attacker (and very good friend) was coughing and gagging as I took him down and finished him off. I guess they thought it was supposed to happen that way. I just improvised. The other second place duo was doing knife defense at it looked pretty good to me. But I ended up with second place. I was pulled aside by one of the judges afterward and was told that the fact that I pulled away the mats and how that kick to the throat looked so real was what secured it. So keep in mind, ther are still many people out there who want to see the brutal stuff.
As to point fighting...I must admit, I used to love it. It was fun for me...was. But we were always taught to distinguish real fighting and sport karate(point fighting). I know I'm going to get a lot of flack from people saying if you train for that, then that's how you'll fight on the street. Only someone who doesn't know better would do that.I someone did something like a lunging backfist to me on the street, believe me he'll hit the ground hard Point sparring is just a drill. It helps develop speed, timing, accuracy, distancing and evasiveness...among other attributes. Also we like to do it for our kids. They have fun doing it and can do it in a controlled environment. Many respectable Kajukenbo-ans do it. And the kids love bringing home trophies, it also helps motivate them to train harder.
Kajukenbo sport? Definitely not! But it's versatility helps us do well in sports.
Ram

[Mell]

We have never encountered problems within Kajukenbo tournaments, only the ones here in Ohio (No other Kajukenbo schools out here).  I think some of it is a lack of understanding of the principals and beliefs within our system.  

To RAM:  As a women, I don't often win in the self defense catagory against the men, (Not to say that women can't win or are weaker) however, the one time I did take first place was when I started to defend with the wrong techique and found myself improvising.  With so much good stuff in Kajukenbo, how can you go wrong?

[Mell]

To Sifu Julian:  Its not that I am advocating hurting people, but I would much rather be disqualified for being overly aggressive than walk away with a token win with techiques that aren't effective.   So I agree with you, especially in Black Belt divisions, if they can't protect their own heads, what are they doing in that division?  

[Manda]

I've trained in the branch of Tum Pai for two years though that may not seem like a long time I train 6 days a week in the dojo and the 7th at home. I believe that Kajukenbo or any Martial Art is neither a sport a discipline it is a way of life. A true martial artist should be able to tell a martial artist from another group of people on sight. This goes along with the ideas of Bushido. As for going to far my Sifu posted a sign that read something like this:
 avoid rather than control
 control rather than attack
 attack rather than hurt
 hurt rather than maim
 maim rather than kill

There can be such a thing as being overly agressive or underly agressive. Each situation should only be taken as far as it needs to go and that shouldn't change regardless of if the agressor had a weapon or not. Plus ther are legality issues as well. A person with martial arts experience no matter how little will always be prosecuted more harshly than someone without. Always think about the situation what if your at a family reunion and your cousin gets drunk and stabs at you with a broken beer bottle? Just because he could possibly kill you does that mean you should kill or hurt him? Even if a total stranger attacks you with all intention to hurt you should you hurt them? It's up to the individual on how to handle the situation, and each individual is different so each may handle the situation differently. Anway theres some brain candy for you.
Amanda

[Manda]

Another post in response to cirillo's post
You are not just a regular civilian you are a trained martial artist and if you were to shoot someone in the head becaus ethey came at you with a gun you would be prosecuted and most likely charged with murder, that is the legality of the situation. In the United States Martial Artists are prosecuted more harshly in Self-Defense Cases than regular civilians because we do have training and we should be able to control without killing. Whether or not it's a good idea to prosecute Martial Artists more harshly than untrained people is up to you. But think about that if you find yourself in a very bad situation.
Amanda

[DACS]

To Mell : I found myself in similar situations where I had to improvise for my techniques. But we've been prepared for that right? My insructor always said (more like yelled) to never stop a technique just becuse you make a mistake. We must always finish it, even if was not what we planned to do. We must practice our mistakes whether it be a mistake you make or your attacker. The recovery from the mistake is what is looked at. The techniques are so interchangable that you can start with any single technique and finish with another. It is not over until the attacker is down on the ground, disarmed and finished off.
If you make a mistake in the street it could cost you you life, but if you can recover from it before the attacker can elaborate on it, the mistake he'll make is having attacked you in the first place.
Oh, and to Manda: Where I come from, Deadly force is allowed when someone attacks you with deadly foce. And a loaded gun is definitely deadly.

[Mell]

To DACS:

Agreed - Quickest way to fail an upper rank belt test at our school is to stop in the middle of a self defense technique because you or the attacker made the wrong move.  Finish what you start no matter what!