Author Topic: Law Enforcement  (Read 4858 times)

Offline DDS

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Law Enforcement
« on: January 20, 2009, 06:34:49 PM »
This has probably been discussed before but this is my question:

For those that are in Law Enforcement/Jailers do you find it is hard to turn "off" the Kajukenbo when using force on people while on duty?  In other words is it easy to just go back to the use of force guidelines of your department while on duty?  Or do you find yourself wanting to smash groins and break limbs because it's been ingrained?   

 
Derek Schroeder
Original Method under Todd Reiner

Offline BlackLabel

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 11:00:49 PM »
I have found that Kaju actually helps control aggression. We train rough and often; therefore when faced with a threat it is dealt with in the most efficient manner possible because usually, through our training, we have attempted to prepare for such scenarios. Training also develops the ability to control adrenaline better and 'see the forest for the trees' so to speak. 
Sibak Jason Akers
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Absolute Martial Arts West Monroe, La.

Offline KBOWARRIOR

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 09:32:36 AM »
I agree with Blacklabel, if you train hard and then get into a altercation on the streets, most of the time you think, this guy couldn't fight out of a wet paper bag.  My instructor, GM Harper started when I first started training with him to show me KAJUKENBO, but then also how to modify the tech so I could use it under my use of force guideline.  Remember that use of force guidelines should allow you to hit a subject if that subject is trying to hit you.  Ripping throats, eyes, groins, might be out, but doesn't mean you can't give them a little KAJU love.  That is for active resisting, fighting, there is a difference in verbal resistance and maybe pulling away and trying to run.  Not a active threat to you so I wouldn't be pounding them at that time. 
Sifu Mark Wallace
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Visalia, California
Emperado Revised System

Offline jensad

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 01:45:18 PM »
Hi DDS

I am now retired from law enforcement.  However, on the street or freeways in the 1960s, I found on the street that people (best way to say it) are unconsciously aware of our Kajukenbo abilities, and when I treated them with respect, and "please" like "please sign the ticket, please place your arms behind you" etc, I had very little problems as I tried to treat all people with respect and still do my job. But after three times please if there was no conpliance, I used reasonable force to get the job done.

Maybe its the way an officer that it trained in Kajukenbo walks, respects others, or for a better word, acts in a professional manner, but I had few problems.

But as a city and highway patrolman I did encounter two occasions that our Art taught me to live and not die.  One in particular, as a CHP officer, the Art saved my life as a street person attempted to shoot me.  He threw several punches and kicks, but then I took him down.

I hit with minimum force reverse punches and broke his jaw in six places.  Almost broke his spine.  I DIDNOT INTEND to break his jaw, just wanted to keep him from pulling the trigger.

He had about five years before, beaten up another police officer, and what he got from me I guess, was "res judicata".  My wife delivered our daughter in our VW as I am going to the hospital three months later.

I guess what I wanted to say is our Art kept me out of confrontations and when I used it, I am grateful for it saving my life and for keeping me from what I call the "dance of death", i.e. overusing and killing my opponent which would have been very easy to do.  But when I used the Art I did not hold back.

Hope this helps.

Good luck to all and stay safe

jim nordlie, a black belt under GGM Gaylord since 1963
Jim Nordlie
Since 1963 a student of Great Grand Master Charles H. Gaylord.

Offline DDS

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 11:58:08 AM »
I appreciate everyone's views on this subject.  It does seem Kajukenbo trains the mind as much as the body so thanks for your input. 
Derek Schroeder
Original Method under Todd Reiner

Offline Rich Cruz

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 01:12:28 PM »
All good info,

I have been a Border Patrol Agent for the last 9 years and the last 4.5 on a full time SRT Team and I can tell you that I have used Kaju several times.  It has always been an issue to me about the level of force to use and there is never a strict line, the situation always dictates.  The thing you must always remind yourself is when it comes down to it, what is your mind set, what is the threat to you at that specific point?  It's one thing to deal with someone who is actively resisting arrest and another thing when a person is aggressing and attacking/assaulting.  In that situation do you have time to wonder what their true intentions are? I think not.  All I know is, getting home at the end of the day is my first priority and if I am being attacked, to me in my mind it is a life threatening situation, for one, I am carrying a gun and other use of force tools and if the situation came down to a person being able to attack before I can get to the side arm (because first and foremost, no matter how good of a fighter you think you are, your are a gun fighter first!) and if I have to go hands on (Kaju-Way) and what I do causes sever bodily injury and or death, then what is the difference if I had been able to get my weapon out on target as the person is attacking and disregarding verbal commands? I am not saying that if my defense stopped the threat and the person was down I would continue with the Kaju finish, but during that process of defending against the threat I was to hit a vital target effectively and the attacker was to die, it would be no different than if I had pulled the trigger.  Eventually I would be in court and I would be stating that at that time in my mind my life was in danger.  The same principals would be in question form the defense attorney; with all your training why couldn’t you have controlled the person and affected an arrest without lethal force?  For all you law enforcement personnel reading, do you train to shoot to the leg, arm or shoulder?

Lethal Force is Lethal Force, weather it is from a gun, baton, vehicle or hand.  Your justification for using it is the same.

Rich
Rich Cruz
Sifu 5th Degree under GM Woody Sims
Cruz's Kajukenbo "Street" Self Defense LLC.
Olympus Gym/Sport Judo Academy
Alexandria, VA.

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Offline jensad

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 01:58:16 PM »
You are 100 % right Rich Cruz, as we go home to the ones we love and who love us.  Good luck to you and enjoy a wonderful career

Also internlchi you are not alone in being sick of politics as I am too.  Comparatively speaking, Kajukenbo is relatively new in the martial arts world, and we need to stick together and speak positives or not say anything.  Thank you for posting what you feel.  I appreciated it.

Thank you Wado. Unless what we learn works, the theory is just a theory.  And Kajukenbo WORKS quite well.

And what Prof. Bono said makes sense!!! to wit, "we just have to be a little meaner and a little more committed.....or Kajulike as it be..."


Good luck to all, stay Kajukenbo strong, and stay safe. 

jim nordlie, a black belt student of GGM Gaylord since 1963
Jim Nordlie
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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 11:23:56 PM »
Greetings,..

When I started my LE career as a Police Cadet in 1977..our society as a whole was quite different as were the attitudes towards officers and ones thoughts to enage in physical confrontation with us.  With that said, as a female who had not had any prior "fights" growing up, I started training in Martial Arts to help build confidence, gain a few extra "tools" for the toll box, stay fit, and add to the formal training I received from my department.

Fast forward now to 2009 and yes I'm still in the business--- Taking on a cop is no big deal for these bad guys today.  In fact, for some, they crave the added status one might get from hurting an officer.  Many are now highly motivated to get away and do damage to avoid another prison term etc.  And last,...with MMA / UFC being so popular, I feel it's a very different fight today than it was 20+ years ago as many more folks out there think they are the next Chuck Liddell etc.         

Sadly, I was not introduced to Kaj until I was well into my career and mostly assigned to administrative positions.  Boy, do I wish I would have had Prof. Mitch Powell as my instructor earlier!  :-) However, knowing what I know now---I strongly encourage members of my department and our future officers (ie Explorer Scouts & Police Cadets) to train with us.  As a Command Staff member now, I personally have no concerns about their decision making abilities and / or whether they will "flip the switch" on/off when appropriate.  In fact, I feel that the added skills and training offers for even better decision making as they progess along in their careers.

I had an "off duty" incident some time ago and let me tell ya',..Kaj absolutely kicked in (literally!) and my professional discipline was just as pronounced after the assaultive person was controlled.  In reflection, I know that had I not been training Kaj,..I would have been ill-prepared (as I had no alternative "tools of the trade" to utilize).  As you might imagine--I learned a ton from the incident (in critique of the whole thing) and,.....I was not the "vicitm" that I could have been!

There are certainly lots of LE "Use of Force" experts around---but I feel most would agree that when "mistakes" are made, it's usually due to a lack of training (ie escalation of force / injury to an individuals because they didn't know / lacked confidence as to other force options) or were themselves injured (or killed) because they freeze up or hesitiated to make that swift / immediate action.

Even when bringing in the Citizen Complaint or Internal Affairs elements into the conversation,...I would venture to say that most agencies have less concerns / issues with highly skilled / well trained staff vs those that engage and use strikes / techniques that are less familiar.  And let's face it,...most department traning is never really enough to prepare you for the fight of your life.   

Kaj teaches and exposes us to all of that and much more,....  and of course at least in my case,...it sure helps when you are taught by and train with another LE professionals--that's icing on the cake for us here!

I hope this helps ,.....
Lori 


 

   

Offline heart99

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2009, 10:47:12 PM »
This has probably been discussed before but this is my question:

For those that are in Law Enforcement/Jailers do you find it is hard to turn "off" the Kajukenbo when using force on people while on duty?  In other words is it easy to just go back to the use of force guidelines of your department while on duty?  Or do you find yourself wanting to smash groins and break limbs because it's been ingrained?   

 








A law enforcement agency has powers, while other law enforcement organizations do not. So, I think, it is not hard for them to turn "off" the Kajukenbo when using force on people while on duty.



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Offline Brandi Ross

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2009, 10:58:55 PM »
Heart99:

ATTENTION NEW AND OLD MEMBERS:  If your member name is a "nick name", WE REQUIRE that you please put your true name and affiliation in the "signature" section of your profile, so it appears at the bottom of your posts. 
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Offline c.chambers

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2009, 01:58:40 AM »
I work for the Texas Dep. of Criminal Justice and I was in a use of force just the other day along with another Sergeant. The Inmate raised his hand to strike the other Sgt. and my Kaju training immediately kicked in. I do not want to sound like I am bragging, but the truth of the matter is that the situation would have gone better, if I was defending myself, by myself. My training allowed me to controle the situation by using solid Jiu- Jitsu basics without actually harming the inmate other than him losing face. The other Sgt. also did well, but without proper training he resorted to a more lethal force of striking. I understand that he was only defending himself with the minimum amount of force necessary by striking, and he defended himself with what he only knew becaues he was getting assaulted also, however I had complete controle of the inmate and could have & would have placed the hand cuffs on him with no problem if the other Sgt was not in the area. Also if the other Sgt was not there I could have maybe used verbal techniques to defuse the situation. I learned that a person defends himself with whatever instinct he has and I am Thankful that my training in Kajukembo gives me the tools to defend myself with the least amount of force necassary or with violent force if need be. I truly believe that Kajukembo training not only gives you a range of skills from passive to violent but also trains you how to use your mind as well. I have to admit that I was scared . Not scared of the inmate but scared of what I could actually do. After the Jiu- Jitsu technique I thought he was hurt badly, but he was only about to pass out. I was really suprised at how well the technique actually worked and if it was not for my kajukembo training and knowing that the inmate was about to pass out and that I was in controle, I might have really done some permanent damage if I would have kept up with the technique. I even had the since of mind to push the other Sgt away from the Inmate to keep further injuries from the inmate. So yes, I believe Kaju trains your mind as well as your body!
Sigung Curtis Chambers. 6th degree blackbelt , American Kajukembo Asossiation member &  student of Professor James Cox.Head instructor in Texarkana Tx. Started Kajukembo "the Knight method" in 2006.

Offline Jedi Don

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 01:23:24 AM »
Great subject I often wonder about this with others in Law Enforcement. I work in the California Corrections system. I have had to use Kaj a couple times to defend myself and others. Use of Force is always at the for front of my mind at all times. If I cant talk an Inmate (IM) down and he makes the situation go to another level then I have no choice but to defend. Pro. Powell has run many panic drills. It helps keep you out of the tunnel visoin zone and your wits about you. All of my Use of Force incidents have been seen as neccsary. I have always reviewed them in my head to see what could I have done different. I am not worried about the force used. I do what I need to do to go home to my family each nite. I am always trying to see what I could of said different to de-escalate the issue. Talking can be as powerful as a fist. Be safe, watch your 6.

Jedi Don
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Offline jensad

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Re: Law Enforcement
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 01:39:27 PM »
I was on the CHP and prior on BPD.  I used our wonderful and excellent Art to good use and once it saved my life.  Streetfighter who had five years before, beat up a Sacramento officer, this time had a gun
 and was going to shoot me.  I grabbed the cyclinder of the gun and then..

We had a very small and short fight, during whichI broke his jaw in 6 places and came very close to assisiting him to the "dark side/world".  Another 1/2 inch would have done it.  And today I would NOT change anything.

Its nice to see other law enforcement/military members post their experiences, and present actual proof that ours is an Art of excellence.  Lets keep Kajukenbo strong and I hope well can all stay together as one family.  Keep up the good work Jedi Don, and all of the others too.  Oh, I too got to go home to my wife and children.  I am so grateful that today I am alive, and my wife and I have 8 grand children and 45 yrs. of marriage. 

Good luck to all and stay safe and keep KAJUKENBO STRONG!!!

jim nordlie, gm, a student of GGM Gaylord since 1963.
Jim Nordlie
Since 1963 a student of Great Grand Master Charles H. Gaylord.