Author Topic: Palama sets  (Read 12777 times)

Ram

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Palama sets
« on: July 15, 2003, 11:28:01 AM »
Before Sijo changed the name to Palama sets, what was it called, how was it spelled and what was the meaning? Oh, and what was the reason for the change? Any info would be appreciated.

Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2003, 12:51:35 PM »
The sets were called Pinan (Pinian), changed to Palama sets, the district where Kajukenbo orginated. Pinan (Heian) mean peaceful Mind.

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Offline John Bishop

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2003, 01:13:41 PM »
The 14 katas of the "Original Method" were renamend "Palama Sets" in 1993 by Sijo Emperado.  He did this to recognize the birthplace of Kajukenbo, the Palama Settlement, of Hawaii.
Previously they were called "Pinnions" after the name used for some of the common Okinawan katas that were also used in Tang Soo Do.
The "Pinnion" spelling was said to be the way the Filipinos pronounced the word "Pinan".
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Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2003, 02:48:34 PM »
Are the Pinans / Pinnions different from the Palamas?  And are the Palamas different from the way other styles do the Pinans?  Or are they all basically the same forms with different names?

Thanks.


Offline John Bishop

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2003, 03:54:04 PM »
Kajukenbo Pinions are differant than the Okinawan Pinans.  There are a few simularities to some of the Okinawan Pinans, but not many.  Palama Set 13 is similar to Pinan 4/Heian 1 of the Okinawan & Japanese systems.  Palama Set 11 is also similar to Naihanchi 1/ Tekki 1 of the Okinawan & Japanses systems.  
When the name change (Palama Sets) took place the katas themselves were not changed, just renamed.  
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"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2003, 06:45:33 PM »
I have also seen the word "Pinan" written as "Pinyon" by some elder Kajukenbo teachers. Here is something to consider when calling your forms Palama Sets.

I learned "pinan" forms many years ago from Calvin Shin and Emil Bautista (Grandmasters now), who were Tony Ramos' first and third black belts from the early 1960's. Tony Ramos' pinan forms were different than the original method that Sijo taught.

Some say Tony Ramos never learned all the pinans right and that's why they are different. Others say he changed them to be different. Whatever the case may be, the forms he taught are very good forms.

I have had the opportunity to compare them to the original forms, which I learned from Professor Joe Davis, who was one of Master Aleju Reyes' early black belts.

The first 6 are nearly identical, except Tony Ramos switched the side cover to the opposite side on 4, and he taught 5 and 6 (the identical open and closed hand forms) in reverse order; 7, 9 and 12 are very similar, but have some different movements; 8 starts the same, but ends up repeating the movements on the left side to end where you begin-with less emphasis on kicking; 10 is much different and 11 was taught by Tony Ramos from left to right instead of right to left; 13, and 14 are completely different with more emphasis on ch'uan fa.

Although some of the forms are different, the movements are all kajukenbo movements. Looking at the forms side by side you can see the changes and variations, but what you notice the most is how much everything is Kajukenbo.

One day I asked Grandmaster Bautista why he didn't call his forms Palama Sets? He said, "I can't." He said the forms he learned came from Tony Ramos and weren't all created at Palama. So, calling them Palama Sets would confuse people.

Grandmaster Bautista makes a great point and right now is a great opportunity to clear up any confusion regarding this issue.

The 14 forms created by Sijo in Palama should be called Palama Sets as he requested back in 1993. The forms taught under Tony Ramos could be called Pinans to seperate them and give them their own identity, without causing any confusion for those new to the art.

Prof. Mitch Powell
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Offline Cabbagehead

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2003, 07:54:53 PM »
On another interesting note, in the Chuan-Fa method their first form Hau Kuen (Monkey form) is based on the first four Palama Settlement Kajukenbo Exercises.
The form is done in one continous sequence and most but not all of the Forward or Front stances have been switched using a deep low Horse stance (squat position) instead.
The purpose of the switch had several reasons, the obvious one of course was in heading towards the Chinese Way and of developing a strong Horse Stance, plus your groin and knee caps were not as expose as in the forward position. Your strikes and/or blocks generated more power because you were sinking deep and low and your blows/blocks had a bone crushing feel to them.
At the end of your form your legs would be shaking.
One more thing and I hope my memory is not failing me but it has been mentioned that their were more than 14 exercises and the numbers may have been up to 21+ exercises. It was believed that the latter exercises were repetitious and thus eliminated and/or forgotten??

Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2003, 02:48:30 AM »
Kajukenbo Pinions are differant than the Okinawan Pinans.  There are a few simularities to some of the Okinawan Pinans, but not many.  Palama Set 13 is similar to Pinan 4/Heian 1 of the Okinawan & Japanese systems.  Palama Set 11 is also similar to Naihanchi 1/ Tekki 1 of the Okinawan & Japanses systems.  
When the name change (Palama Sets) took place the katas themselves were not changed, just renamed.  
Mr. Bishop, actually Pinan 2/Heian 1 are the same kata in Okinawan and Japanese versions. Pinan 4 is entirely a different form. I am glad that Sijo Emperado changed the  kata names to Palama sets. Pinan and Heian kata are well established forms and the original Kaju forms bear very little resemblance to these forms. I believe, in my opinion, using the names Pinan (Pinion) was not a good choice. There are variations of Pinan and Heian, but they all resemble strongly and follow the same embusen (pattern). we have the same situation in Shaolin Kempo where pinan 1 and 2 are merely the Taikyoku 1 and 2/3 forms and different from the actual pinan series, and the names were used erroneously. In my school we call these forms the Basic forms (kihon no kata). Love to hear your opinion.

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Peter Teymouraz
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Offline John Bishop

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2003, 04:20:53 AM »
I could be wrong but I was under the impression that Gichen Funakoshi reversed the order of Pinan 4 to be the first kata in his renamed Heian series, making it Heian Shodan (1).  
This was verified to me by master Fumio Demura.  In a interview I did with him he complained that some Shotokan people didn't know the origin of their Heian katas.  When his students would do Pinan Yondon (4) in competition the Shotokan judges would score them low, and tell them that there kata was Pinan Shodan because it is nearly identical to Heian Shodan.  As Demura explained to me Funakoshi changed Pinan Yondan to Heian Shodan feeling it was a better form for a beginner.  Of course there are some differances between the Shotokan version and the Okinawan version.  Most noticibly the use of the back stance in the Heians instead of the cat stance that is used in the Pinan's.  
As to Sijo's originally using the term "Pinan/Pinian" as I recall him telling me it was because of the fact that the Pinans are used in the Tang Soo Do system.    
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 01:38:41 PM by John Bishop »
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Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2003, 01:21:38 PM »
No Sir,
I know Sensei Demura very well and couple of his high ranking students/teachers are my good friends. Funakoshi reversed the order of Pinan 1 (heian 2) & Pinan 2 (heian 1). Pinan 4 is a different form. The beginning of pinan 4, and Okinawan Pinan 1 are similar and may be that is where the confusion is coming from.

I am aware of existense of Pinan kata in Tang Soo Do. But they are exactly performed as in Shotokan with minor differences. The Kajukenbo versions are entirely different forms and that is all I meant. It is like calling a "chair", "table".

Respectfully,

« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 01:23:14 PM by Kenmpoka »
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Offline John Bishop

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2003, 02:26:36 PM »
 ;)Well like I said "I could be wrong".  I'm not a expert on Okinawan kata, so I'll take your word for it.
You do have to remember that that the early Kajukenbo katas "Pinion/Pinyon"  were spelled and pronounced differant than the traditional "Pinan" kata, so perhaps that was a way to differenciate them from the Okinawan forms.  
But,  we'll have to pose that question to one of the founders.
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"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Karazenpo

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2003, 11:23:41 AM »
   From what I recall when Funakoshi altered the Okinawan Pinans fpr Shotokan, he reversed the order of Pinans 1 and 2 so Heian 1 was based on Pinan 2 and Heian 2 was based on Pinan 1. He did this because Okinawan Pinan 1 was too difficult to teach beginners and Pinan 2 was much easier. So I have to agree with Peter there and I, too, can see the confusion due to the similarities of the opening sequences of Pinans 1 and 4.
I also see what Sigung Bishop means by Sijo originally calling the forms "Pinans" after Tang Soo Do. I believe  he mean't even though the forms are different he used the name to reflect the influence of Tang Soo Do in Kajukenbo, sort of like the term "Shaolin" Kempo Karate. The significance of "Shaolin" would be the influence or roots from China but the kempo karate denotes the system as a karate style over a kung fu style.
                                      Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Offline Matt

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2003, 01:48:53 PM »
  From what I recall when Funakoshi altered the Okinawan Pinans fpr Shotokan, he reversed the order of Pinans 1 and 2 so Heian 1 was based on Pinan 2 and Heian 2 was based on Pinan 1. He did this because Okinawan Pinan 1 was too difficult to teach beginners and Pinan 2 was much easier. So I have to agree with Peter there and I, too, can see the confusion due to the similarities of the opening sequences of Pinans 1 and 4.
I also see what Sigung Bishop means by Sijo originally calling the forms "Pinans" after Tang Soo Do. I believe  he mean't even though the forms are different he used the name to reflect the influence of Tang Soo Do in Kajukenbo, sort of like the term "Shaolin" Kempo Karate. The significance of "Shaolin" would be the influence or roots from China but the kempo karate denotes the system as a karate style over a kung fu style.
                                      Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Okay, I'm going to head out on another pedantic/anal retentive history note.

1.) In Funakoshi's 1925 book 'Karate Jutsu', his pinan series matches almost exactly the shorin ryu versions, in content and order.

2.) When they were renamed Heian, (actually, pretty much just 're-pronounced'), they were re-ordered so that Pinan Shodan became Heian Nidan, and Pinan Nidan became Heian Shodan. To be see the comparison, check out any shotokan book (or -and I'm not making this up - www.24fightingchickens.com ) and then check out the book 'The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do' by Shoshin Nagamine

3.) The word pinan is formed from the characters that are pronounced Ping (peace) and An (calmness or tranquility) in Chinese. There is a lot more Chinese influence in the old Okinawan dialect Hogen, thus the pinan pronunciation. In Japanese the characters have the same meaning, but are pronounced heiwa and antazu. Hence, the contraction Heian.

4.) When Tang soo do was formed, it was formed in November of  1945, after the founder returned from studying shotokan from funakoshi. It was originally called Soo Bahk Do. The characters for Tang Soo Do are direct translations of Kara te do (tang/chinese hand way) - incidentally the way karate was written when it first got to Japan.

5.) The Pyong-an forms from Tang Soo Do are the same as the Heian forms, essentially. Not surprisingly, it's just a translation of the same characters Ping an/ Heian /PyongAhn.

Even with all this, I'm still baffled how a Tang Soo Do black belt should be in Hawaii in 1947, since it wasn't named Tang Soo Do yet...Can anyone help me with this one?


Matt
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Karazenpo

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2003, 02:48:55 PM »
Hi Matt, I remember some of what you just posted when I was doing some research a while ago. Sounds like to me you're right on the money! Good job! As far as the Tang Soo Do black belt in Hawaii in 1947, there wasn't any. The Tang Soo Do in Kajukenbo was added later. The 1947 thing was just one of those twists and turns in history where some inaccuracies occur and over the years become fact. I believe at the early inception of Kajukenbo, Peter Choo was a welter weight boxing champ and that was his first contribution to the art. The Korean influence came a little later on. Sigung Bishop can enlighten us more on this. As a matter of fact, if you do a search this was discussed at length on another post on this forum. Check it out!  Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Karazenpo

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2003, 02:51:54 PM »
Here you go Matt:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof. Peter Choo was born in Honolulu, Hawaii. He was one of the co-creators of Kajukenbo. Responsible for the Korean art of Tang Soo Do or the "KA" in Kajukenbo. Grandmaster Choo studied with Professor J Rhee in Tae Kwon Do, Professor Sam Luke in Judo, and Koichi Tohei, a 10th degree master in Aikido. He had the priviledge of training at master Tohei's home.
Grandmaster Choo received the prestigeous 1937 Joe Lynch Boxing Award. (Joe Lynch was the trainer of Max Baer, the Heavyweight Champion of the world in 1934-1936). He also received several of championship awards during his three years of tourney with the 6th Army Far East, U.S. Army Europe Troops as a Green Beret.
     Professor Choo has quoted, "if you think you're beaten, you are. If you think you dare not, you won't,  if you'd like to win, but think you can't, almost an cinch, you won't.  For life's battles don't always go to the stronger or faster man. For sure as fate, the man who wins is the man who thinks HE CAN!"
     Prof. Peter Choo was inducted into the Hawaii Martial Arts Society Hall of Fame in 1999.


Prof. Choo passed away in Hawaii in 1997.