Author Topic: Palama sets  (Read 12759 times)

Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2003, 07:31:51 PM »
Gentlemen,

In short the order of Okinawan Pinan 1 & 2 were reversed and renamed "Heian" by Gichin Funakoshi. Lets not confuse ourselves. Most Korean Punching and Kicking arts were under the banner of"Tang Soo Do" prior to using the Korean term "Tae Kwon Do" before 1950's.

The Pinan series were taught in Kenpo Jiujutsu (Kosho Ryu) by Professor Thomas Young prior to inception of Kajukenbo. They were adopted by the permission of Mr. Mitose, and were brought over from Kyokushin and Shotokan by Bobby Lowe (a Mitose and Chow BB) who was also Mas Oyama's representative and still the most senior instructor.

I am still very glad that the names of Kaju Pinans were changed by Sijo Emperado to Palama Sets. Pinan/Heian Kata exist in certain forms, embusen and techniques with minor variation in different factions of Okinawan and Japanese karate Schools and styles. Kajukenbo Pinan(s) bear no resemblence. So Palama Sets fit much much better.

Shaolin Kempo's usage of Pinan 1 & 2 is wrong as well since SK's Pinan1 exist entirely under the name "Taikyoku Shodan" or "Kihon no Kata", and SK's Pinan2 is a combination of the three Taikyoku series.

Why don't we just call all forms Pinan just because it suits us!!!

Respectfully,
« Last Edit: July 18, 2003, 07:50:44 PM by Kenmpoka »
Peter Teymouraz
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Offline John Bishop

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2003, 06:33:00 PM »
Peter:
The only problem with the refering to the Pinan katas taught by Thomas Young is the timelime.  Thomas Young did not take over the "Official Self Defense Club" until 1953.  
Edward "Bobby" Lowe received his shodan from Mitose in 1953, and did not join Mas Oyama's Kyokushinkai until November 15, 1958.  
The Kajukenbo Pinians (at least the eight original ones) existed years before 1958.  
Thomas Young himself told me that he asked Bobby Lowe to teach him some katas because Mitose had only taught him Naihanchi Shodan.  But this was after Lowe had joined Oyama's group.  
Bobby Lowe is still alive, so he will be able to verify this.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2003, 11:59:13 PM by John Bishop »
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Palama sets
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2003, 01:16:23 AM »
thank you Mr. Bishop on the dates. I stand corrected on the timeline.

I think I have made my point on the names and usage. Certainly I did not mean to offend anyone or any style.

Salute,
 
Peter Teymouraz
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Offline Teej

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Re: Palama sets
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2005, 11:41:23 AM »
Are the Pinans 1-5 that the Villari Shaolin Kempo groups the same as the Okinawan or Shotokan pinans? The reference to being the same as Shotokan is interesting. I recall a tournament years ago where a Shotokan black belt did a Black Belt shotokan form in the forms division at a Villiari tournament. (i do not recall the name of the form. it was NOT a pinan form)

The black belt messed up durning the form, but finished. Mr. Villiari then got up infront of everyone and did the form and showed the black belt what he left out of his performance. I assumed Mr. Villari had some Shotokan training.

Anyway, what about the Katas 1-5 the Villiari groups use. {they use pinans 1-5 and what they refer to as Katas 1-5} Where do these Kata's come from?

Yours in the Arts,
Teej

T. Walker
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American Kenpo Karate University, Inc.

Offline kogastyle

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Re: Palama sets
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2005, 11:55:09 AM »

The black belt messed up durning the form, but finished. Mr. Villiari then got up infront of everyone and did the form and showed the black belt what he left out of his performance. I assumed Mr. Villari had some Shotokan training.


He corrected a student during a tournament in front of a large group of students and instructors?  That doesn't seem very appropriate to me, especially if it wasn't his student.  Not to be too off topic, but what do others think of this? 
Sam Warren - 3rd Degree under Grandmaster Walt Andrae

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Palama sets
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2005, 11:56:23 AM »
The Shaolin Kempo "Pinans" are almost identical to the Shotokan "Heians", and Okinawan "Pinans".  I was told that Nick Cerio (Villari's teacher) added them to his system.  I don't now the origin of the Shaolin Kempo "Kata 1-5" is, but they do not resemble any Kajukenbo katas I've ever seen.
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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Offline Matt

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Re: Palama sets
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2005, 01:22:09 PM »
Are the Pinans 1-5 that the Villari Shaolin Kempo groups the same as the Okinawan or Shotokan pinans? The reference to being the same as Shotokan is interesting.

They are very similar, but not the same. I think I've done this breakdown before in another thread, but here's the short version:

Villari:
1 Pinan = Shotokan Taikyoku Shodan

2 Pinan = "what I did on my summer vacation" by Nick Cerio. Nick Cerio created the form used by Villari based on Taikyoku Nidan and Sandan (note, not Tekki nidan and Sandan, those are renamed Naihanchi) using line drills learned while visiting Bill Chun Sr. and Chow.

3 Pinan = mostly shotokan Heian 3, but if you did it at a shotokan school, they would say, "what the heck did you do to the end?"

4 Pinan = see above, plus, "close but no cigar, and where did the back stances go?"

5 Pinan = Same comments as 3 & 4

Quote
I recall a tournament years ago where a Shotokan black belt did a Black Belt shotokan form in the forms division at a Villiari tournament. (i do not recall the name of the form. it was NOT a pinan form)

The black belt messed up durning the form, but finished. Mr. Villiari then got up infront of everyone and did the form and showed the black belt what he left out of his performance. I assumed Mr. Villari had some Shotokan training.

Cerio did teach some of his folks forms like Enpi, Bassai, etc. from the black belt levels. Wouldn't surprise me if Villari picked some up. Cerio went through a phase where he incorporated a lot of shotokan, but I thought it was after Villari's time with him.

Quote
Anyway, what about the Katas 1-5 the Villiari groups use. {they use pinans 1-5 and what they refer to as Katas 1-5} Where do these Kata's come from?

Yours in the Arts,
Teej


There's the million dollar question. The current story is that they were created by Victor "Sonny" Gascon, Walter Godin and Dave Kamalani after the separation of Mr. Gascon's school from kajukenbo. All East Coast schools from that lineage stem from George Pesare, and he teaches them.

However, there are a few problems that I haven't been able to reconcile yet,and hope to the next time Sonny Gascon gets to the East Coast.

1. Gascon's schools don't teach them.

2. Walter Godin's schools apparently didn't teach them after his return to Hawaii.

3. A friend of mine who taught a seminar at a school out of Dave Kamalani's lineage asked about them, and they didn't recognize them.

So, I've been researching it for years and I can tell you definitively:

I'm not sure.

Matt
Matthew Barnes
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Offline Teej

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Re: Palama sets
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2005, 01:53:25 PM »
To Kogastyle,

He corrected a student during a tournament in front of a large group of students and instructors? That doesn't seem very appropriate to me, especially if it wasn't his student. Not to be too off topic, but what do others think of this?
Quote

This was a Villari tournament. The Shotokan black belt was an instructor that was at the time, converting to the Villari system. He was put into a Villari school as instructor to replace the instructor that left. This black belt was in the process of learning the Villari material. He did not have any Villari black betl forms to compete with, so he did his Shotokan form at the Villari tournament.

This happened almost 20 yrs ago. The black belt competitor was not offended [i talked to him after], just surprised Mr. Villari new the kata.

Lets look at the bottom half of the filled cup. Maybe Mr. Villari publically helped this guy remember and improve his form. :D Anyway, this was 20 yrs. ago and is off topic. [We could start a protocal thread.]

Matt, if you ever find out about these Kata's 1-5, please share the info. I would love to know. Does anyone know if the Villari branches out there still use these Katas' 1-5?

Teej
T. Walker
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American Kenpo Karate University, Inc.

Offline Matt

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Re: Palama sets
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2005, 09:17:53 AM »

Matt, if you ever find out about these Kata's 1-5, please share the info. I would love to know. Does anyone know if the Villari branches out there still use these Katas' 1-5?

Teej


These forms are still in use by George Pesare, The Villari schools, and the Villari offshoots (Masters Self Defense Centers, United Studios of Self Defense, Shaolin Self Defense Centers, Masters of Karate, United Shaolin Kempo, etc. ) with minimal changes.

Matt
Matthew Barnes
Cape Cod Martial Arts Academy / Kempo Jutsu Kai International
"Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whøre of my soul by swearing allegiance to one..." Thomas Paine, The AMERICAN CRISIS.