Author Topic: High School Students/Black Belt Students  (Read 15098 times)

Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2007, 07:03:31 PM »
I am not the right guy to ask that question to because I really don't care if little johnny wants to train or not. I don't make a living off of it nor do I have to pay rent. I can't even imagine the old guy's even contemplating this question back in the 50's ;)
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2007, 07:11:59 PM »
This is true, and it's the way I run my school though Gaylord tells me to take it a bit easier and maybe some more will stay and then become great students later...they just need a chance.  Of course I do finance my school also with my office so I have a place to play...
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Offline William Badders

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2007, 10:21:29 PM »
i think that was a bad asp hat!
i also have many instructors and i am loyal to all of them.
~William
2nd Dan Kajukenbo Under Sigung Goldade<br />Instructor Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu Under Sensei Patterson

Offline Dean Goldade

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2007, 07:23:34 AM »
Teenagers are a tough group to attract and retain.

Nowadays they have school sports, tons of homework and AP classes, school events & extra ciricullar stuff.. Not to mention X box / Gamecubes & 360's......

Most of my teenagers stay with it because of a genuine love of the arts.. But these guys started as kids, and just kept on going.

As for marketing or retaining teenage students, that is a tough one. Today the UFC and MMA are the big "cool" buzzwords out there... Most teenagers think Karate is not cool, but being an "Ultimate Fighter" is...

Blocks and punches from a horse stance won't keep em.... But a single leg takedown to a ground and pound or a submission will.

I even see this with the younger adults 20 - 30 who want to be the next Matt Hughes or Chuck Liddell.

Today the stats show that males in the age group of 18 - 35 watch MMA more than football or other sports events.

A way to retain and attract these people is to gear a program that will attract them. You need to have a program that teaches standup / clinch & ground. You don't have to change your standards in regards to how much you make them sweat / bleed, but not many of that age group are going to sign up, or stick around for a traditional basics / forms type of karate class anymore.

Not to mention that there is a whole lot of info out there today that shows this approach to be a more practical and realsitic way to train anyway.

This demographic is looking for fitness / self defense / practicality & cool..... They want to stand in the hall by their locker, or at work by the water cooler and tell everyone about how hard they train, and how cool what they do is.

If you want to attract and retain these students, you have to market for them.

If you just teach at your instructors school a few hours a week, or out of a garage or rec center for a couple of extra bucks... You can do what you want.

But..........

If you teach full time and want to make your living teaching the martial arts you have to structure your programs toward what the customer wants... Not what you want.

All depends on what you want to do, and your goals.

Check out this thread by Sigung Dan Tyrrell.. It has a great video that will really help you see just how important the "cool factor" really is with that age group.

http://www.kajukenbocafe.com/smf/index.php?topic=3107.msg32005#new

Good luck and keep up the hard training...

Dean.

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Offline badsifu

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2007, 10:16:15 AM »

If you teach full time and want to make your living teaching the martial arts you have to structure your programs toward what the customer wants... Not what you want.


You summed up the business (or any service oriented business for that matter) of martial arts in one sentence.  Anyone who is serious about moving forward with their business needs to make the above quote their daily mantra.  Seriously.  Well put Dean.
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Offline Dean Goldade

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2007, 04:46:57 PM »
Only problem with that is gotta change your program every 5 years or when a new movie trend comes out.  Let's see started with Judo/Jujitsu, Kung fu in the 60's then it went to TKD, Ninja, PKA, Muay Thai, FMA, Reality Based, BJJ, MMA.  Eh, I guess I'll go back to my garage with good ol Kaju, I'm sure it'll come back in vogue in the next few years.

Sigung Jason,
Besides the Ninjitsu all the stuff you listed above already fits into the good ole Kaju. That is the beauty of Kajukenbo.. We are rounded enough to play in a bunch of playgrounds. It is all in how you market and package it.

If you are running a full time school, you are already running at least 3 - 4 classes per day.. Structure your classes to appeal to a wider market.

- Kids Karate
- Traditional Kajukenbo
- Grappling
- MMA

These are just a couple of ideas...

You can add a cardio class, a weapons class, Whateva. If you get a little creative you can keep your doors open and still keep your standards.

Take care

Dean
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2007, 04:54:27 PM »
Never any love for the Ninjas :(
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Offline badsifu

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2007, 05:08:55 PM »
Only problem with that is gotta change your program every 5 years or when a new movie trend comes out.  Let's see started with Judo/Jujitsu, Kung fu in the 60's then it went to TKD, Ninja, PKA, Muay Thai, FMA, Reality Based, BJJ, MMA.  Eh, I guess I'll go back to my garage with good ol Kaju, I'm sure it'll come back in vogue in the next few years.

We are looking at Darwin's theory of evolution in a business platform when we look at the above statement.  YOU MUST be able to adapt in order to survive.  If you fail to adapt, then you will become extinct.  In a dojo's perspective, is a teacher without any students still a teacher?  You can look at how different arts adapt to the changing environment and how they thrive/survive vs those that have failed to do so. 

Aikido:  Has stayed basically untouched and is seen less as a martial art and more as a religion despite the popularization of the art thanks to movies by Steven Segal
Kung Fu:  Hit a peak of fame in the West thanks to Bruce Lee.  Even though there has been occasionally flag waivers like Jet Li and Jackie Chan, the Chinese martial arts have since lost their "mystique"
Karate:  Yes, Karate Kid and Mr. Miyagi helped to spur on the success of many a martial art school.  However, wax on-wax off is now a punchline.
Ninja Turtles:  I think every kid wanted to be a ninja turtle for Halloween at one point.  Those kids that didn't put away the suits are now computer nerds in Salinas or something...
TaeBo:  Billy Blanks single handedly got more women to enroll in martial arts than any other person EVER.  I would venture so far as to say that during Blanks' reign of fitness/gospel he may have tipped the scales from martial arts being a kid funded activity to a fitness activity for moms, dads, and everyone else who just wanted to get "empowered."  Unfortunately, there is only so many ways you can throw a punch and a knee in the air and keep it entertaining...no matter how many Amens you get the class on the video to scream.
Gracie JJ:  Early UFC and Gracie JJ was all the rage.  In fact, it is hard to even think about a current cage fighting champion not being good on the ground thanks to the Gracie family.  GJJ has been stepped over by the larger and more competition friendly BJJ.  Most within the grapplers circles would agree that Gracie arrogant unwillingness to adapt has caused a great deal of slippage in rank and pomp among the more elite grapplers.
MMA:  Currently at the pinnacle of the public eye.  As mentioned before, the new "cool."  Oh don't worry, it won't be there forever either. 

"For over a thousand years Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of triumph, a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeteers, musicians and strange animals from conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conquerors rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children robed in white stood with him in the chariot or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror holding a golden crown and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting."
- Gen. George C. Patton

So what is next?  My guess is the Dog Brothers.  They will get their due soon enough.  They carry the reality but also a great deal of spirituality in their message that I think the MMA "thugs" are missing. 

As Dean said, you don't need to change if you are Kaju.  You already are all these things.  We are a Jack of All, Master of None.  That is our strength.  We don't HAVE to change because we ARE change.  Think about it.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 05:12:34 PM by badsifu »
Dan Tyrrell

Offline Dean Goldade

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2007, 06:09:37 PM »
Only problem with that is gotta change your program every 5 years or when a new movie trend comes out.  Let's see started with Judo/Jujitsu, Kung fu in the 60's then it went to TKD, Ninja, PKA, Muay Thai, FMA, Reality Based, BJJ, MMA.  Eh, I guess I'll go back to my garage with good ol Kaju, I'm sure it'll come back in vogue in the next few years.

We are looking at Darwin's theory of evolution in a business platform when we look at the above statement.  YOU MUST be able to adapt in order to survive.  If you fail to adapt, then you will become extinct.  In a dojo's perspective, is a teacher without any students still a teacher?  You can look at how different arts adapt to the changing environment and how they thrive/survive vs those that have failed to do so. 

Aikido:  Has stayed basically untouched and is seen less as a martial art and more as a religion despite the popularization of the art thanks to movies by Steven Segal
Kung Fu:  Hit a peak of fame in the West thanks to Bruce Lee.  Even though there has been occasionally flag waivers like Jet Li and Jackie Chan, the Chinese martial arts have since lost their "mystique"
Karate:  Yes, Karate Kid and Mr. Miyagi helped to spur on the success of many a martial art school.  However, wax on-wax off is now a punchline.
Ninja Turtles:  I think every kid wanted to be a ninja turtle for Halloween at one point.  Those kids that didn't put away the suits are now computer nerds in Salinas or something...
TaeBo:  Billy Blanks single handedly got more women to enroll in martial arts than any other person EVER.  I would venture so far as to say that during Blanks' reign of fitness/gospel he may have tipped the scales from martial arts being a kid funded activity to a fitness activity for moms, dads, and everyone else who just wanted to get "empowered."  Unfortunately, there is only so many ways you can throw a punch and a knee in the air and keep it entertaining...no matter how many Amens you get the class on the video to scream.
Gracie JJ:  Early UFC and Gracie JJ was all the rage.  In fact, it is hard to even think about a current cage fighting champion not being good on the ground thanks to the Gracie family.  GJJ has been stepped over by the larger and more competition friendly BJJ.  Most within the grapplers circles would agree that Gracie arrogant unwillingness to adapt has caused a great deal of slippage in rank and pomp among the more elite grapplers.
MMA:  Currently at the pinnacle of the public eye.  As mentioned before, the new "cool."  Oh don't worry, it won't be there forever either. 

"For over a thousand years Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of triumph, a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeteers, musicians and strange animals from conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conquerors rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children robed in white stood with him in the chariot or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror holding a golden crown and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting."
- Gen. George C. Patton

So what is next?  My guess is the Dog Brothers.  They will get their due soon enough.  They carry the reality but also a great deal of spirituality in their message that I think the MMA "thugs" are missing. 

As Dean said, you don't need to change if you are Kaju.  You already are all these things.  We are a Jack of All, Master of None.  That is our strength.  We don't HAVE to change because we ARE change.  Think about it.

Yea,
What Dan said.....  ;)

Now that was a well thought out post brother...

Dean.
Student of the arts
www.austinkaju.com

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2007, 06:55:15 PM »
GM John E Bono DC
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2007, 01:53:08 AM »
Wake me when the war's over, just can't stand all the excitement.

Best part about waging wars against Krotty/Ke?po/Taekwondon't McDojos is that you can poke fun without any fear of physical reprisal! With that said I'll poke fun at GJJers once I have a few more years of training under my belt  :-X

Dan, On a side note, I forget if I gave it you already, but I'm sure you'd love my lessons learned notes I made for myself while teaching, as I tried to straddle the unfortunate fence of keeping students and not BSing them out of their wallets. Funny how you said that "smile" comment, as the biggest thing I've learned as for introducing people (regardless of age) into real training is simply how you go about it. 9/10 times, I found simply your demeanor and keeping things relaxed can get even the most timid of student sparring rather confidently after a month or so of training. It's a good feeling when you get that kid who cried every time he got socked in the gut during a rousing session of point sparring, coming into class a few weeks later begging to work some clinch drills and spar.  :D
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2007, 05:53:30 AM »
As Dean said, you don't need to change if you are Kaju.  You already are all these things.  We are a Jack of All, Master of None.  That is our strength.  We don't HAVE to change because we ARE change.  Think about it.

If everyone in Kaju changes, the only similarity will be distant relation the founding five.  I'm more of a traditionalist :  if "it" doesn't work for at least a classic (50 years) period of time, then it's no good.   In martial arts , that would be about 3-5 generations, right ?   In martial arts terms, that would mean that you are still doing a your teacher's technique after he has passed away.  You still teach it his way because it works rather than fear his disapproval of your change.   You can prove that "it" works when your student still teaches the technique after you die.  The fifty years definition for classic was probably based on the number of adult years (age 15-65), and even that has changed.

My impression of the driving force of most change in martial arts is money and sport.  Most of the money is drawn by the acrobatics clubs (and dancers in gis) and ego-builder cults, coupled with the sale of equipment.  The sport is weaponless ring fighting, be it boxing, kickboxing and grappling.   There is some self-defense training, but it is rare.  Even that is untested in modern America because most of the people training in self-defense arts don't need it.







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Offline NYKaju

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2007, 07:48:09 AM »
Quote from: Gints Klimanis

If everyone in Kaju changes, the only similarity will be distant relation the founding five.  I'm more of a traditionalist :  if "it" doesn't work for at least a classic (50 years) period of time, then it's no good.   In martial arts , that would be about 3-5 generations, right ?   In martial arts terms, that would mean that you are still doing a your teacher's technique after he has passed away.  You still teach it his way because it works rather than fear his disapproval of your change.   You can prove that "it" works when your student still teaches the technique after you die.  The fifty years definition for classic was probably based on the number of adult years (age 15-65), and even that has changed.

Well now, that is quite a criterion. So how do you know if "it" (it being the training/techniques) is good after 50years time? Is this testing it against other martial artists of other styles in training? Beating up drunks with it down by the bar? Jumping into local sport competitions? I am not being glib, just genuinely curious how you came to such an ambiguous (IMO) conclusion.

As for me, the saying has always been the "lineage doesn't make the training, the training makes the lineage." I'm sure someone's said that before me, so I won't take credit, but that's essentially my view in a nutshell on 'style' and 'rank.' When your training is sound, you do a service to your heritage, and when you continue to train something when you know something is better out there, in the name of "tradition," you do those who came before you a disservice.

I believe Professor Bishop made good on an analogy comparing an art to a tree. To elaborate on that comparison, a good art is like a tree that continues to grow; if you stunt the trees growth it will wither and die. Caring for a tree also takes pruning -cutting away the dead branches- and ensuring the soil and foundation is still healthy and fresh. If you don't do that...well I guess you never really cared about that tree.
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Offline Dean Goldade

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2007, 08:02:09 AM »
As Dean said, you don't need to change if you are Kaju.  You already are all these things.  We are a Jack of All, Master of None.  That is our strength.  We don't HAVE to change because we ARE change.  Think about it.

If everyone in Kaju changes, the only similarity will be distant relation the founding five.  I'm more of a traditionalist :  if "it" doesn't work for at least a classic (50 years) period of time, then it's no good.   In martial arts , that would be about 3-5 generations, right ?   In martial arts terms, that would mean that you are still doing a your teacher's technique after he has passed away.  You still teach it his way because it works rather than fear his disapproval of your change.   You can prove that "it" works when your student still teaches the technique after you die.  The fifty years definition for classic was probably based on the number of adult years (age 15-65), and even that has changed.

My impression of the driving force of most change in martial arts is money and sport.  Most of the money is drawn by the acrobatics clubs (and dancers in gis) and ego-builder cults, coupled with the sale of equipment.  The sport is weaponless ring fighting, be it boxing, kickboxing and grappling.   There is some self-defense training, but it is rare.  Even that is untested in modern America because most of the people training in self-defense arts don't need it.


Gints,

There will always be the "today vs yesterday" disagreements.

The founders put the art together to develop the best fighting system they could with what they had available. The thing I see that sets Kajukenbo apart from the other arts is

 - It's "warrior spirit"
 - It's open mindedness & no B.S. attitude toward training
 - Ohana. Staying true to your roots
 - Using what works to get the job done...

The Kajukenbo developed in 1947 is different from what was taught in 1967. Sijo has made modifications to it all along, and many others still continue to modify the methods..

How many instructors out there teach the art exactly as they learned it? Honestly..

Do they maintain their traditional status because they sit in a horse stance and do forms? If they teach the techniques and basics differently, and have modified their forms & tricks, then are they really traditional?

Your original art is Karazenpo correct? Did G.M. Gascon do everything exactly the same as he was taught by Sijo in Hawaii? Just because the art still uses forms & pre-set tricks does that make it the same? Does everyone in Karazenpo teach the art the same as they learned it?

Do you still teach it exactly as you learned it? No FMA influence, or anything else?

What I don't teach
 - basics from a horse stance
 - forms ( I do teach them to the higher rank guys for historical reference, but they are not required for testing )
 - I don't teach moving back and forth down the floor in a front stance doing blocks / punches and kicks.
 - All of the original tricks ( grab & punch arts )

What I do teach
 - Basics done from a good fighting stance ( boxers stance and hands up )
 - Skill developing sets.. Not forms, but sequences of movement that develop the basics
 - Boxing and FMA footwork
 - Self defense techniques vs a variety of attacks... Standing / Knee high & on the ground. I help the students to develop their own techniques. I show em mine for starters because they don't have any... But their counters do not have to be the ones I use, but they need to work. I don't force them to learn mine because I made em.
 - Tons of bag and mitt work standing and on the ground.
 - Standup / CQC / Ground / Weapons fighting.
 - Warrior spirit

I may be wrong and I am just a little guy in a world full of great martial artists. But I don't feel that Kajukenbo is defined by the pinans or the tricks.. I feel that what sets Kajukenbo apart is the "warrior spirit" and training to get the job done.

I may not teach as many traditionalists do, but come watch a class and train with us... If you can tell me there is no KA / JU / KEN or BO inside there.... Then I will call it something else.

And as for the 50 years thing... I can name a lot of arts that are still out there after 50 years... They may be traditional, they may have made the 50 year anniversary, but they can't fight for poop...

That is just my humble opinion

Take care

Dean



« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 11:51:18 AM by Dean Goldade »
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Offline badsifu

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Re: High School Students/Black Belt Students
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2007, 12:00:59 PM »
You touch on a lot of points here Gints and I understand what you are saying.  When I first started teaching, I told myself I will teach it just how it was taught to me.  I think a lot of people want to honor their roots in that way.  When you stop and think about it though, the question Dean raises is exactly what is our roots?  What is Kajukenbo? 

I can not go from one Kajukenbo school to the next and see things done the same way.  Why?  My feeling is that the early training was focused around making a technique work for the individual.  With so many different body types, personalities, and backgrounds there are limitless possibilities.  This is also why you don't see the same "effect" in many other systems of training.  Judo for example you have a syllabus of 80+ throws.  You may not do all of the throws based on your body type, but the throw doesn't change.  I could go from one Judo school to the next and Osotogari will be the same in each and every one of them.

This is getting way off topic but whateva.  What is Kajukenbo?  Kajukenbo is taking what works and scrapping what doesn't.  Sijo saw this and was changing, taking away, and adding to the art.  This is why you have Ch'uan Fa, Tum Pai, and WHKD.  What works 50 years ago may not be what works now based on the population.  The streets of Honolulu of the 40s and 50s are not the streets of Oakland, Inglewood, Napa, Vallejo, Visalia, Santa Barbara, or Austin.  More people have taken martial arts.  TKD, BJJ, High School Wrestling, Boxing, Arnis, and whatever else you can think of.  So I stand behind my original statement.  We are change.  You can choose not to change.  I choose to evolve.  So which one of us is really Kajukenbo?  I have the Ka the Ju the Ken and the Bo.  Can everyone else say that?  Maybe...maybe not.


As Dean said, you don't need to change if you are Kaju.  You already are all these things.  We are a Jack of All, Master of None.  That is our strength.  We don't HAVE to change because we ARE change.  Think about it.

If everyone in Kaju changes, the only similarity will be distant relation the founding five.  I'm more of a traditionalist :  if "it" doesn't work for at least a classic (50 years) period of time, then it's no good.   In martial arts , that would be about 3-5 generations, right ?   In martial arts terms, that would mean that you are still doing a your teacher's technique after he has passed away.  You still teach it his way because it works rather than fear his disapproval of your change.   You can prove that "it" works when your student still teaches the technique after you die.  The fifty years definition for classic was probably based on the number of adult years (age 15-65), and even that has changed.

My impression of the driving force of most change in martial arts is money and sport.  Most of the money is drawn by the acrobatics clubs (and dancers in gis) and ego-builder cults, coupled with the sale of equipment.  The sport is weaponless ring fighting, be it boxing, kickboxing and grappling.   There is some self-defense training, but it is rare.  Even that is untested in modern America because most of the people training in self-defense arts don't need it.








Dan Tyrrell