Author Topic: How important are forms/katas?  (Read 7696 times)

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2003, 04:31:59 AM »
DACS,

The kata contain a library of techniques.  For a good education in kata, one should be able to mix n' match individual techniques within a form with various orders and timings.  They can be practiced solo or by asking your training partners to provide the movements for which you reply with initiations or counters from the forms.   Then, you can visualize your opponents and kata all over them.

Have a blast.  Please let us know what you discover.

"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline D-Man

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2003, 04:52:17 AM »
Forms teach structure

There is no substitute for experience (sets and sparring), but what kind of experience would it be without structure?

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2003, 09:31:04 AM »
Gints,

I would in no way advocate a 'forms' only practice. Forms are a conditioning method. Not merely a physical conditioning. If that's what you want, go get yourself a Tae Bo tape and dance with the music. Forms condition a neuromuscular response. A combination of actions that 'should' respond to something.

Steve Sanders wrote an article on 'brain sight' which basically says when we begin training we perform our techniques very methodically. First A, then B, then C. Perry, Pound, Kick. After a while, we understand that it should be one action, ABC, yet we are still 'thinking' about our actions. Eventually, through continued practice, ABC occurs by natural reaction. We didn't think about it, we just responded.

This comes about through years of practice. I'm not there yet, or maybe I am and don't know it. But I believe that our experience in exercising techniques comes through a balanced regimin of which forms are only a part. I practice forms, dry techniques (no partner), techniques (w/ partner), active sparring, and occassionally what we call a three step drill.

I have a love/hate relationship with the 3 step. I hate 'em but they are very good. The principle is that in a real fight, you won't always be able to execute a perfect technique for the given situation. You may never do that. So an oppenent begins by punching at you. You respond with 3 techniques (or strikes) and stop. You oppenent then responds with 3 techniques. Try to not take down too soon. Continue this exercise until one of you can no longer respond.

You should learn to take advantage of the targets presented to you and respond in an appropriate attack of the exposed targets. One of these days I'll get better at this exercise.

I think the only part of training I feel I am missing and I think is soon being remedied is a more full contact, all out, bust 'em up session. At some point, the heat needs to be turned up and find out just how you respond to a more realistic threat. I need to know just how an opponent is going to 'feel' making realistic threats to my personal being. Throw a real punch and retract it and throw again.

That's probably the most difficult part of training, you certainly don't want to hurt your training partner nor do you want to be hurt but we need to 'get real' in our training at some point. The streets are much less forgiving.

I think our school is on the lookout for body armor so we can do just that kind of training. I'm looking forward to that. I want to test my metal.
Rob Poelking, Black Belt, Original Method
Black belt under Sigung Ray Anderson
http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2003, 02:04:28 PM »
Gerry,

When I write "free-form kata", I mean that the training is similar in nature to shadow boxing .  Since "shadow boxing" is a term borrowed from western boxing, I think we need another term to describe what we are doing.


"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2003, 02:06:18 PM »
D-Man,

>There is no substitute for experience (sets and sparring), but what kind of experience would it be without structure?

Thai and Western boxing are able to train fighters with
their equivalent kata.  Their programs are structured,
but obviously, not in a kata-like manner.
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline D-Man

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2003, 05:56:09 PM »
gints,

I think I know what you are getting at, but could you please elaborate?

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2003, 05:50:09 PM »
Hello Gerry,

Thank you for a particularly informative post.  It was a fine read.  I've saved it in my archives.

>Taiji Quan (Shadow Boxing)

This translation is not correct.  Perhaps there is another
Eastern phrase for shadow boxing, but Taiji Quan is not it.  The meaning of Taiji is described in the first paragraph of the article.  Also, I just checked this with
my favorite Mandarin-speaking martial artist.  I asked him "Does Taiji Quan mean shadow boxing?"  He replied, "No."

I do not know Chinese, so I rely on my Chinese friends for translations. I habitually ask for translations of Chuan Fa and a correction of my pronounciation. Quan (Cantonese) or Chuan (Mandarin) means Fist. Thus, the translation to boxing is not literal.

Also, if you check the dictionary, boxing is now defined to be the sport of boxing.  The popular majority has redefined a word with a past.

Your article describes the history of a martial art.
I didn't read any lines that correspond to the activity we were calling shadow boxing.  If you notice any such lines, please point them out.

With respect,

Gints




"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:How important are forms/katas?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2003, 09:04:23 PM »
Hello Gerry,

Thank you for another interesting article.  I've only seen material like this in books and magazines.  Where do you find such articles on-line ?

After reading these two great articles, I almost feel bad for pressing the original issue of the origin of the term
"shadow boxing."  I remain unconvinced because none of these articles provide the Chinese words for "shadow boxing" or even shadow.  It simply appears that the author used the term to relate to an English-reading audience, perhaps reinforcing that the term "shadow boxing" (not practice) is Western in origin.  Anyway, since you've been so generous with the information, and I've been nothing but trouble, I'll give up.

Gints
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts