Author Topic: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?  (Read 13045 times)

Offline kajudru

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2007, 10:26:26 PM »
Wow, what I thought was a simple question, turned into a great discussion about rank, respect, and honor (to some degree). I have to be honest, getting my black belt in Kaju is a goal of mine. I know black belts or any color belt doesn't mean jack to some people and there are many who have a black that don't deserve it (mostly in other arts that start with a Tae  ;D), but the way I am training now I know I will have put in my dues once I earn my black belt. I personally like wearing my gi and putting on my shiny new white belt. I look at my instructor with his faded black gi, his black belt, and see the way he moves and easily overpowers me (even though I have about 30 lbs and 3 inches on him), I know his black belt was well earned and I give and show him all the respect he deserves.
Sihing Jason Drury
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2007, 10:30:44 PM »
They give out black belts in Tae Bo now!? It's worse than I thought!
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
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Offline kajudru

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2007, 10:34:18 PM »
Obviously, no one wants to be "that guy" who resists during technique demonstrations or questions their instructor's wisdom. You get to really feel like a Jedi master, effortlessly flipping and flopping your uke's/student's lifeless bodies up and down the mat with the most convoluted and ridiculous techniques you can imagine, all the while they praise you for it :)

My Kaju instructor makes a comment if he feels I am not providing enough resistance or feels I am tapping to early or going down too easily. I have done it, but I think it's mostly subconsciously.

Now my BJJ instructor (a black belt) is awesome on the mat. I try not to go light when I spar with him. The first time I spent about 30 min just trying to pass his guard while I was standing up. It was so frustrating.

James,

How many times I have you choked out Sera  ;D
Sihing Jason Drury
KSDI Student under Sifu Bill Ross (Tony Lasit Branch)
Elite Combat Academy
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Shreveport, LA

"More Sweat In Training, Less Blood In Battle"

Offline NYKaju

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2007, 10:46:52 PM »
James,

How many times I have you choked out Sera  ;D

Oh, that's child's play. Got bored doing that after like 3 months training.

*prepares for the relentless beating once someone reads this forum and tells Matt*  :-X ;D
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
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BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline sifutimg

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2007, 10:58:52 PM »
Sifu Trent relayed to me a few weeks ago something our first instructor said, "Belts are just a way of keeping time".  As was said it's the way belts are utilized that makes all the difference in the world.  Up front I tell my students know not ask about belts, but they know they will get a belt when certain things are in place.  They all know I decide that.  When I was in China there were no belts to be found anywhere.  I wasn‚Äôt training with the typical Shaolin groups that go, I was training with some obscure folks and of the 12 or 13 instructors that I met and trained with, no one used belts.  In the Silat that I train in there are no belts also.  If I understand correctly belts are an American thing but am not sure.  In addition I feel our society in many ways has done us a dis-service when it comes to instilling and looking for character traits with our students in how kids are raised these days.  So you have folks that think it's the norm to jump around from school to school.  They simply don't know any better.  For me I don't care about (I am not saying anyone here does) if I am being perceived as progressive and if the student seems to be obsessed about the belt they stay in their present station longer.  Sometimes they quit and that is OK because I want people who are dedicated to themselves and not some symbol so it can be a good tool to weed out the wannabees.  I am in my garage.  Not trying to make a buck just trying to share good solid Kaju.  We train hard and that is the focus and when I think a student is ready to test for a given rank then I tell them and watch their eyes light up and get excited.  Then we hold a belt test and allow them the opportunity to earn their belt.  For me that has worked well and it creates a lot of fun, a sense of connectedness and family and a sense of going through something.  Deep down I think most people on the path want that. 

My two cents.
Cheers,
Tim
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2007, 11:46:55 PM »
Sifobia (fear of disrespecting ones Sifu) also known as Sensei-phobia to those who use Japanese titles ;D

It's quite fun stuff actually. You can make anyone do literally anything if they respect you enough. Obviously, no one wants to be "that guy" who resists during technique demonstrations or questions their instructor's wisdom. You get to really feel like a Jedi master, effortlessly flipping and flopping your uke's/student's lifeless bodies up and down the mat with the most convoluted and ridiculous techniques you can imagine, all the while they praise you for it :)

That's what's so cool about being a aikido sensei.  2 guys run at you and you just tap them on the fore head, and send head over heels.  And all the spectators go "wow".  One of my young naive friends wanted to switch from jujitsu to aikido because he couldn't make his uke's do summersaults when he did wrist locks on them.  No matter how hard he tried, they just went down to the mat.  He was surprised when I told him all he needed was better uke's, like the aikido guys have ;)
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2007, 12:00:12 AM »
Quote from: John Bishop
He was surprised when I told him all he needed was better uke's, like the aikido guys have ;)

That's the problem I'm having lately. I kick a guy in the chest, and instead of producing an impressive breakfall knockdown, I get single-legged down to the mat  :-\
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline Danjo

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2007, 10:14:23 AM »
Those SKK kicks are great eh?
"Rank Without Honor is Nothing."
Dan Weston
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FMAA
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2007, 11:40:40 AM »
Sifu Trent relayed to me a few weeks ago something our first instructor said, "Belts are just a way of keeping time". 
... (words deleted)
In the Silat that I train in there are no belts also.   

Great quote on keeping time !

In some Silat circles, there are sashes.  If you have a really nice-looking sash and sarong, you're the top dog.   I wonder what it takes to get the funky jazz-musician cap.  I think I'd rather have the belts.




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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2007, 01:28:46 PM »
I think the hat may be more of a Muslim thing.  Maybe I'll ask Cat Stevens.

Any stats on current trendy schools (MMA) that don't use belts or uniforms on the retention or longevity of students verse schools that do?  I'd think that if they're not training to fight in the cage or ring the luster of belonging to an MMA club would ware off like belonging to say the spa.  Unless they're just there for the workout and camardarie.  I'm sure it's probably a case by case basis on; quality of the club, instructor, facilities, location, etc.  Something to think about.  Other than kids, we seem to be losing alot of numbers to the MMA craze.

This is only based on personal experience, but it seems that with adults it's less of a belt to student ratio, but rather a pain level to student ratio. As in it's more likely they won't retain students if they get bruises or bloody noses, rather than losing students because they don't have belts. :P

BJJ schools use belts, and are all the craze at the moment. They seem to be profiting quite nicely with large numbers of new students signing up every day. If you got purple belt or higher, you usually have some fighter within 2 generations of you out there that you can coat-tail ride. In BJJ, getting hurt really only happens if you push yourself too far or act stupid. For the most part it's good fun, with little risk of injury.

Judo schools use belts, and I see them suffering, at least out here. Judo isn't accepted amongst the wannabe-TUF crowd (yet) as a quality or necessary art to train. When people do sign up....it hurts! Especially when they don't breakfall correctly. People aren't there to train and get hurt, they are there to pretend they are badasses! On top of that, Judo schools are losing students to BJJ schools, as the lack of ground game at most Judo dojo's has been exposed, so rather than seeing the two skillsets for what they are, people just assume one is "better" than the other...which they are not, at least IMO.

Muay Thai/Kickboxing/Boxing. No belts. Muay Thai is the newest craze due again to MMA, but a lot of people give it up quick once they realize how much hard work it is. Some people do there what many others do in Boxing, which is essentially hit the pads and bags when they train, but duck out the door before any sparring starts. Getting hit in the face hurts, and people learn very quickly whether they feel they are cut out for that kind of training or not. Schools that teach exclusively these arts, usually also run cardio classes, and beginner non-sparring classes -that most people never venture out of- to pay the bills. If they don't....well then they're either broke, or probably making gobs of money working at one of the few well known fighter gyms where they can focus on those few dedicated individuals.
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
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BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline Wado

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2007, 05:33:46 PM »
Quote from: John Bishop
He was surprised when I told him all he needed was better uke's, like the aikido guys have ;)

That's the problem I'm having lately. I kick a guy in the chest, and instead of producing an impressive breakfall knockdown, I get single-legged down to the mat  :-\

Ah, kicking a grappler is not a great idea.  Get them to try to punch you, then kick them. Just a thought.

It also works better if they are in fear for their life.  If they sense your attack is going to knock the wind out of them or knock them out, they will be much more inclined to move out of the way of it.
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Offline Wado

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2007, 05:59:57 PM »
Sifu Trent relayed to me a few weeks ago something our first instructor said, "Belts are just a way of keeping time".

I like that saying a lot.

Professor Tim, I learned that in Japanese, the title of Sensei does not mean teacher but more literally it means someone that has come before... someone that has experienced something before you have. 

------------------

I once was the uke asked to demonstrate a spinning back kick on a very well respected and high ranking Aikido Shihan.  He was to demonstrate a counter to that technique.  I spun around too fast and cleanly for him to counter my kick.  He told me to do it again but more like a spinning hook kick so he could demonstrate the counter.  I did, and he countered me quite easily.  This on front of everyone.

The point here is that all belt ranks trained together.  No one got upset because me a white belt in Aikido kicked to fast or hard for the Aikido Shihan to counter.  Everyone trained together.

People still trained at their level (what they could handle) but black belts trained with white belts... color of belt didn't matter.  What is learned from other students is often just as meaningful as what is learned from the teacher.  There were times when people would break apart in groups to work on particular things based on level, but the main training was still done for all levels together. 

The belt system truly did seem to be a way of tracking time.  The sensei was just someone that had walked the path before me... everyone was both teacher and student.




W. Yamauchi
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Seattle, Washington

Offline William Badders

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2007, 10:10:44 PM »
wasn't a Gracie knocked out by a kick(knee)   ;)
no disrespect
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2007, 12:16:53 AM »
wasn't a Gracie knocked out by a kick(knee)   ;)
no disrespect

It was Ralph Gracie against Pride Champ Takanori Gomi.
see: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3708304681865248026

But as far as sweet knee finishes, "Kid" takes the cake beating Gomi's 6 second victory with a FOUR second victory of his own, AND does it while in the air :)
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE-bF8w0gxU

What was the point of this again?
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
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BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline Wado

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Re: Does Anyone Else Use This Belt Ranking System?
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2007, 07:31:06 PM »
wasn't a Gracie knocked out by a kick(knee)   ;)
no disrespect

wasn't a Gracie knocked out by a kick(knee)   ;)
no disrespect

It was Ralph Gracie against Pride Champ Takanori Gomi.
see: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3708304681865248026

But as far as sweet knee finishes, "Kid" takes the cake beating Gomi's 6 second victory with a FOUR second victory of his own, AND does it while in the air :)
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE-bF8w0gxU

What was the point of this again?

Thanks for the info James (or is it Jacques now?)

The point of the thread was about belt ranks. The point about kicking a grappler, getting kneed, etc. was not relevant to this thread topic. 

So to stay on topic... when I started karate they used these belt colors: white, green, brown black.  When I was in Aikido they used these belt colors for adults: white, brown, black.

To go off topic for a moment, experience is not always reflected in a belt color.  Experience is probably more important than technical skill when it comes to real world situations.  Experience is not worn around the waist, if seen at all it is worn on the face/eyes, the attitude, and in actions.

Such strategies as box a grappler, grapple a kicker, kick a boxer can be interpreted in many ways but it is all qualified by experience.  My uncle told me stories of when he was in gang fights in the 1930s, Japanese verse Chinese gangs in California.  They were Judo guys and would get the Chinese to kick, they would catch the leg, put them down and choke them out... it was over.  A karate instructor that worked the doors at a pub told me that once a guy tried to shoot in on him, he instinctively raised his knee and the guy ran right into it, knocking himself out.

A belt in martial arts does not represent real world, some people wear black belts in life.  I think some people equate belt to real world experience when they think just having the belt makes them a bad asp.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 07:33:25 PM by Wado »
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
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