Self-Defense or Sparring?

[Karazenpo]

I like the way Sifu Tim put it and that is exactly how we do our classes. I can't say I really balance it because I don't. I lean toward the street, heavily, this is how I was trained but Shihan Kathy and I still give them enough tournament karate to produce excellent competitors. My students have won many trophies over the years and they have won them with good solid points of which we take pride in. I make sure when I run a sparring class I continually remind them that this is not how its done on the street and then I demonstrate the street version of what they just learned. Excellent point made by Sifu Tim, I, too, feel that is the only way to balance it.  Respectfully, Shihan Joe

[Nagi]

In response to Nagi, Sensei Ron, I'm sure the guy that fought 'Paz' was a Tae Kwon Do converted boxer. I'll try and found out , I believe Gm. Pesare is friendly with Vinnie Paz. I may know the Kempo/Tae Kwon Do school you mentioned. You have to ask yourself what is the quality of the kempo instruction received there? versus  the quality of the Tae Kwon Do instruction? I believe I know the answer to that and I think, Ron, you do too.

In response to Shihan Joe the TKD gentleman learn to use his hands from Hee Il Cho when he was in Cranston RI and perfected them along further by being Vinny Pazienza's sparring partner.

[D-Man]

Okay people,

Lets say your facing another martial artist on the street, who is an excellent point sparer.  It's likely that this person is a terrible fighter, but he might get the first crucial blow. I certainly wouldn't use #1 punch counter or something on him.

Am I getting to "what if"y here?  Sorry, it's 9:00 Pacific time here and I hate mornings.
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Kempo-Sensei,

I agree with your thoughts.  The more I work out with people from different backgrounds, I see that styles can be closely related through they're ultimate training governor; using what works. Every time I play around with my TKD buddy, I do a lock or something, and his response is, of course, "we have that."

We should, like you said, all be "practicing the same thing." In my opinion, it is how you use your style that determines how well it works. This is usually decided by head instructors of the school, not the style itself. I'm not saying that some styles aren't more effective than others, I just believe that you cannot ACCURATELY predict who will win in a fight judging by the title of their style.

[Karazenpo]

  I agree with that D-Man. I feel that if anyone, not only a point sparrer gets a 'good' first shot in and then immediately follows up, can win that particular encounter. Let's face it, if a teenage girl who never took a karate lesson in her life kicked us square in the groin by surprise and wacked us in the face with her school bag and then ran away.............well, she undisputedly won that one, wouldn't you say?, lol

[D-Man]

Yes Shihan Joe, but she won't be so lucky next time, I've been working on #1 school girl defense counter.

[Karazenpo]

Good one, D-Man . In response to Sensei Ron, Master Cho was considered one of the best kickers in the world but I don't remember him being noted for his hands, neither were his black belts. They could really kick though. I was familiar with several of his black belts in the late 70's and the only one with great hands was Chuck Longo, who made black under Ron Thieverge (sp.?). I went to the Wallace/Thieverge fight and Wallace 'ROCKED' him with his 'HANDS' before he used his kicking skills. If you ask me it was Wallace's hands that beat him. When he had him in a 'daze' then the Wallace 'signature' kicks started flying. Again to give Thieverge the proper recognition he deserves, he was a great kicker but Wallace, I don't think, got enough credit for his hands due to the fact they were overshadowed by his kicking ability. As far as the fighter you mentioned Sensei Ron, perhaps he had some natural ability with his hands to start with and progressed accordingly. I don't know who you mean, so I'm just theorizing.   Respectfully, Shihan Joe

[TODD]

My class had gone to a few tournaments while we were in Oregon early eighties.  They were not
the same as California.  It was the same style as in continuous fighting with points tallied
at the end.  In Oregon it was very easy to get disqualified.  After the first one we just went to
socialize and practice what we learned.  Being one of two schools in the Boise area wearing black
I think there might have been something else going on....In Minnesota nowadays head gear
is required and theres no contact.  Fight is stopped afeter each point.  We don't go!  My question-Is
the rest of the U.S. now like this...no contact?  If so why bother?  Why block or duck a kick I can
see coming over my head?  I think every potencial student has a choice-sport or defense.  The
problem is how many honest instrustors will answer truthfully and pass on the money?

[Gints Klimanis]

Todd,

Perhaps it's a bit unfair to judge modern tournaments by older standards.   A lot of these events have been created for a different purpose and thus are new.
Also, our litigious society often imposes safety standards above and beyond the desires of the
participants.  On July 20 in Sacramento, I videotaped my
eskrima friends in their stick sparring event at a Kung Fu
USA Open tournament.  The stick fighters were required to wear hear gear, hand gear, knee and shin gear, groin gear and swing foam sticks.  Most of the players knew that such equipment wasn't required, but the tournament insurance apparently wouldn't cover the event without these restrictions.  The same event included forms, and hand-to-hand point and continuous sparring.  There were plenty of bloody noses.

If you're looking for new fighting events, check out the Dog Brothers stick fighting tournaments. I've fought in one.  You swing heavy sticks with minimal padding, only on hands, groin and head (fencing helmet).  If you've ever been hit by a 32" stick, you'll know a fencing helmet doesn't offer much protection.  Every event includes knockouts, major welts,
minor bone breaks and all sorts of injuries.   The injuries
are not desirable, but indicate that some amount of
physical risk is required to participate.
www.dogbrothers.com

Good to hear from another that wants to keep the martial in martial arts,

Gints

[TODD]

Yea, I suppose theirs liability issues involved.  Its too bad.  Thanks for the info...never got into
weapons though.  Figure if I sign to fight in a tournament a waiver should be good enough.  I
must half to disagree with the modern tournaments...I take it California is now the same?