Author Topic: Inappropriate touching  (Read 14935 times)

Offline John Bishop

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Inappropriate touching
« on: August 14, 2003, 04:52:37 PM »
I saw this posted on another forum.  
Your opinions please

"improper touching in the Dojo
There is a man in our class who when paired up with my friend or myself, maybe other women too, I haven't asked them yet , always ends up punching our breasts. When he is supposed to throw punches at us and we have to block them he always punches too high or low and manages to punch our breasts. My friend thinks he does it on purpose. I think he may on occasion but that he might have a depth perception problem.I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Any way I talked to our teacher and he said it's not really his place to say anything to this man and we should tell him ourselves. I prefer not to work with this individual because of this. I can tell this person but the teacher said in a real fight we could be touched on our breasts and to deal with it. Wrong answer? I'm kinda pissed with my teachers response to this. If someone is trying to cop free feels in the Dojo it's unacceptable. And we can block it's just that he always manages to get a few touches in and we are not happy. What should we do? "

John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2003, 05:32:43 PM »
I feel the teacher dropped the ball with that response. Clearly, it's the teachers responsibility to create the right training environment. Also, when a student makes a claim like that you need to substanciate it or determine whether or not the person making the claim is overly sensitive.

If I were the teacher, I would take each female student aside and ask them if they ever felt they had been touched inappropriately while training at the school. I would probably ask them a simple general question like, "Do you feel that you have every been touched inappropriately while training at my school? If so, could you explain.

I would also watch the person in question and see if I could identify any times where I thought he was touching others inappropriately. I might even set up a camera to film classes for a while.

If I saw something that was consistant with what was being said, I'd kick the person out on the spot.

If I found out through interviews that several people felt they were touched by this person in an inappropriate manner, I would expell them from the school.

Based upon the circumstances, I might even suggest contacting the police to see if this person is a sex registraint, and filing a report to document the incident.

The environment that we train in must be one that promotes the development of us and our art. When it is not, changes must be made. The teacher dictates what is acceptable or not acceptable in their school. The teacher needs to act.
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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2003, 11:22:05 PM »
My instinct says right away "find another instructor or school".  I agree with Prof. Mitch Powell.
The teacher should have investigated.  This falls under sexual harrassment.  The person
whom feels this needs to say something to the individual, but when an instructor is comfronted on
something like this it must be acted on.  As an instructor would I comfront the accused right away?
No.  He/She could be totally innocent.  But then again could be guilty which is why an investigation
would have to take place.  For sexual harrassment to be sexual harrassment the perp has to be told
that HE/SHE is being inappropriate or its not harrassment.  I was in the Navy during tailhook
and spend hours of training on this subject.  If anything has changed please educate me.  Either
way something has to be said to the accused but not right away, wouldn't want to ruin an investigation!
Moreover, if the accused is guilty He/She is out.  Concidering class is not the workplace it would
be OK the the victom to not say anything to the perp and go to the instructor instead.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 11:27:27 PM by Todd Reiner »

Offline DACS

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2003, 01:45:39 AM »
In our school, we are really tight. We ARE one big family.  So if something like that were to happen, it would be like as if it were happening to one of my sisters or daughters. Of course I would observe first to see if it is true, maybe pair him with another male to see if he does it the same way with other guys. If it is so, I'd pair him off with one of our advance guys and let our guy teach him a little lesson. I'm sure he won't be coming back after that. Fortunately, we haven't had to worry about that so far and I hope we never have to.
As for the teacher feeling that it is not his place to say anything, I totally disagree. There's a saying that goes something like "far too many people worry about their rights, but they forget about their responcibilities." It is their responcibility as the instructor (especially if they are the head instructor) to ensure the safety and well-being of the student s while they are in their class. Especially when it has to do with sexual harassment. For that is a big reason some women take the class. What is that teaching them if we turn a blind eye to that situation? That type of behavior would never be tolerated in our class. NEVER!
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Offline Brandi Ross

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2003, 06:17:49 PM »
I have been thinking about this one.  We treat each other as family.  When class begins, our Sigung does not see a gender difference.  We pair man/man, woman/woman, man/woman to do our drills.  We are all as respectful as possible, but sometimes accidents do happen.  I don't think any of our students try to touch inappropriately.  Well, not that I have seen or been the subject of.

When we work on groudwork, judo, etc.   I can see more touching going on, but that is totally inadverant.  When you are grabbing to get better control, touching will happen.  My question is what are your thoughts on this and how does it affect the opposite sex when  working on the ground or judo maneuvers?  Personally, I have no problem and it makes me a stronger person.  I look to the challenge.  We all respect each other.  If we didn't, I believe that Sigung would ask the individual to leave and not return.

Aloha,
brandi
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sigungjoe

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2003, 07:51:12 PM »
from what i have seen, most times it is the male individual that is concious about where he grabs. ive heard our female students say "dont worry about it, i know that your not just trying to get a cheap thrill" women want to be treated the same way men are treated in class. and they know when you do grab arts, ground work, judo throws, or wrestling, the hands will inadvertently end up someplace that normaly would get an individual into trouble. my humble oppinion is, if a woman claims someone is touching her inappropriately, then its my responsiblility as head of the school to observe and make my own conclusions. i think ive been around enough to know when someone is trying to work the technique, or "trying to cop a feel." if its inappropriate, they are gone. no ifs, ands or buts about it. i wouldnt even beat them, they are just a piece of trash, and sooner or later it will catch up to them.
just my humble opinion.
joe solis

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2003, 08:24:49 PM »
In our class, one woman (Yes, she had longer nails, chuckle) was unwilling to do some of the groin/testicle grab techniques.  They are regular techniques in the Arts of the our program (Club Art #10, Rotation #9, others). She said that she was not comfortable with such "personal" techniques.  None of the instructors pushed the matter, although it put us in a quandry.
Some techniques are skipped due to permanent or temporary injuries on the permission of the instructor. Voluntary omission was new to us.

"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
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Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline DACS

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2003, 04:16:49 AM »
In our class, one woman (Yes, she had longer nails, chuckle) was unwilling to do some of the groin/testicle grab techniques.  They are regular techniques in the Arts of the our program (Club Art #10, Rotation #9, others). She said that she was not comfortable with such "personal" techniques.  None of the instructors pushed the matter, although it put us in a quandry.
Some techniques are skipped due to permanent or temporary injuries on the permission of the instructor. Voluntary omission was new to us.


Was this in your formal class, or the one you have at home? I checked out your fight club web-site,INTERESTING. Yes, looks a lot like the DogBrothers type of training. Were you influenced by them?
Ramos Method
Wahiawa Kajukenbo

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2003, 09:37:37 AM »
I think that instructors response was quite wrong. But my response if I were a woman (or my training partner were gay trying the same thing) would simply be, #$%ing hit 'em harder especially if it involves a groin strike.

Is that wrong of me? :o
Rob Poelking, Black Belt, Original Method
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TODD

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2003, 11:40:13 AM »
I think you would get your point across ;D

Offline Mell

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2003, 07:38:26 PM »
We as women have the same responsiblity as men to first give someone the benefit of the doubt.  If you don't like being punched or touch in the breast area, that is what a chest protector is for.  Start wearing one and the man in question will stop punching there.  (It hurts to punch those things - I'm talking about the hard plastic ones that fit under a sports bra)

Guys need to stop apologizing for hit us in the breast.  I'm not apologiizing for hitting them in the groin.

At the same, time, I am not saying the guy isn't out of line.  Just suggesting that you take that option away from him by using equipment that is available.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2003, 07:38:52 PM by Mell »
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Offline Serene

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2003, 08:05:58 PM »
Good Afternoon:

My opinion, she should have checked him right at the door herself.  

I agree with the teacher the student should have handled their business. I don't think that the teacher didn't care about the problem. I think he believed she could handle it. I don't believe that any instructor would put their student in a situation where harm would come to them.    

If someone grabs, touches, punches, feels any part of your body in the street there are no teachers/instructors to run too?  

One must learn that the same thing will happen in the streets he will be trying to cop a feel, rape, steal or worse kill you. What are you going do about it? Run to the teacher? No, you are going to handle yours as we are taught too. Training for the streets starts in the dojo.

"NO MEANS NO!"

Respectfully,

 
Sifu Serene Terrazas
Head Instructor
Terrazas Kajukenbo
American Canyon, Ca.

TODD

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2003, 08:54:10 PM »
Does the teacher have the responsibility to create a safe and secure learning environment?  True, training starts at the door.  To a new student is self-confidence, self-esteem, aggressivness and etc automatic?  Those things are something training instills in students, taught by the instructor.  An advanced student should be able to take care of business and inform the instructor of the situation.  A junior ranked student is still in a confused bewildered state to this new family.

Offline Mike Nagano

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2003, 11:22:05 PM »
As an educator in the elementary schools, I feel that there is no question that whatever goes on in my classroom is (at least in part) my responsibility.  If my class is out of control, it is my fault and my problem to fix.  Yes, my students must also play their part, and if that kind of cooperation does not exist, then I've got another problem to fix.  Their successes are my successes.  Their failures or shortcomings are also mine.

As a martial arts instructor, I feel there's a similar responsibility.  As much as we'd like to make training as realistic as possible, there are certain rules and customs that are inherent to every martial arts school.  It is still a classroom type of environment.

The main difference between the two situations (outside of the obvious difference in curriculum) is that in the martial arts school, the instructor has more of a final say in cases of inappropriate behavior.

In short, the instructor needs to investigate.  Would I rather have females leave because they feel uncomfortable due to the inappropriate behavior of other students?  Definitely not.  Or would I investigate the situation, possibly confront the individual in question, and risk losing him/her as a student?  This, to me, is acceptable.

Sifu Mike Nagano
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Offline Sifu Terry McBride

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Re:Inappropriate touching
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2003, 01:29:58 AM »
Hey Serene,

You'd and I'd just beat the crap out of the guy if he was hitting our breast on purpose.  For one, it hurts!!! to get punched there and then there is the issue of what his intent was.

There really is no reason to strike breasts unless your doing rib shots and sometimes things get in the way or you miss your target.  The cups work and I won't do tech's without them.  

The responsibility was the instructors.  As a female I'd be able to show my student how to handle the situation and stand up for herself, but how many join in the first place because they need to increase thier self-confidence.  It makes sense to you and me to stand up for ourselves, but there are many out there that aren't there yet.

I did a speech and mini ladies self-defense class at a local university.  I asked the ladies, who was comfortable with the idea of fighting back to the point of harming someone if they were attacked or threatened.  About 60% said yes.  40% were completely uncomfortable with the idea of fighting back.

Instead of thinking they're wrong, I taught some quick releases and stuns to allow them to run to safety.  Otherwise they weren't interested.  The gal in the class was right to approach her instructor, her instructor wimped out when he refused to get involved.  I'd find another instructor.  

Hope to see you guys this fall  :).
Terry McBride, 5th degree under Professor Joel Purvis, under Grandmaster Emil Bautista
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