Author Topic: Your on your own  (Read 23548 times)

Offline Danjo

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2008, 02:30:02 AM »

Nature vs Nurture debate anyone?

No problem. I go for nurture brings out nature. The word educate comes from the root word "educe" which means "to draw out of". By putting the student through  various situations or posing leading questions, one draws out of the student the knowledge or ability that is within him. The more this is done, the more refined the skill (mental or physical) becomes. The American Indians believed in the Vision Quest as an example and an African tribe made the young man hunt down and kill a lion with just a spear. These types of ordeals brought out the man in them and allowed them to become adult members of the tribe. Those are just two of many examples that can be given. Socrates, on the other hand, used a series of questions that would lead the student to the truth. The monks of various religions use meditation to get to that point of enlightenment. The list goes on and on. It's true that the person might never realize their potential until they are forced by either circumstance (like the mother mentioned above) or through training to call upon that which resides within them, but it won't come out if it aint there to begin with. You can't get blood out of a turnip no matter how hard you squeeze. If you squeeze something and blood comes out, it's because the blood was already in there. The squeezing didn't create it, it just created the conditions for it to come out.

If it were the other way around, then a good instructor would be able to turn anyone into a top student. We know that this is not true. Even the best instructor is limited by the potential of his pupil. All he can do is develop what is already there. He can't make you into a fighter, but he can draw out the fighter within and make him better.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 02:34:43 AM by Danjo »
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2008, 07:11:46 AM »
Yes sir,

The military knows what they are doing when it comes to training soldiers to apply their trade. I believe that the training process along with the fact that soldiers, airmen sailors and marines don't wan't to let down their brothers and sisters accounts along with experience for the fact that they are able to effectively apply their trade during stress. It is all about conditioning. I know that I was conditioned by both training and experience and whenever I retired it took me a while before I was able to "loose" my edginess. I got in trouble allot for about five years because of this conditioning and my inability to adjust to the "real world." I learned after a handful of years that it was my responsibility to adjust to society not society's responsibility to adjust to me. I think that it is at this point a veteran makes the transition from being soldier. I was in limbo for allot of years. I wasn't a soldier and I wasn't a civilian. Now I know what it really means to be a veteran. I have allot of empathy for those veterans who have not been able to make this transition.

Mahalo,

Sifu Pat


Sifu Pat,

 I recall many of times my brother telling me about guys who had the "triple canopy" but yet froze during times of combat. He aslo said if it wasn't for the other guys on his team he would most likely be dead. I remember a particular exercise we did in sniper school. We had to train our scopes on acutal people without them knowing it, no one was excluded men, women, children. This was to get us use to sighting someone in and squeezing the trigger without regret. At first it was kind of spooky but after a while it became second nature.


That has to be such a weird feeling, even if you know 100% that your gun isn't loaded.
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2008, 07:17:28 AM »
You make valid points here, sir. I never considered this before but it makes sense. Special Forces has a selection phase where they determine if the candidate has that thing they need to draw out. Not everyone does or everyone would be selected. Very good observation on your part.

Sifu Pat "Kapono" Campbell
Chief Instructor/5th Degree


Nature vs Nurture debate anyone?

No problem. I go for nurture brings out nature. The word educate comes from the root word "educe" which means "to draw out of". By putting the student through  various situations or posing leading questions, one draws out of the student the knowledge or ability that is within him. The more this is done, the more refined the skill (mental or physical) becomes. The American Indians believed in the Vision Quest as an example and an African tribe made the young man hunt down and kill a lion with just a spear. These types of ordeals brought out the man in them and allowed them to become adult members of the tribe. Those are just two of many examples that can be given. Socrates, on the other hand, used a series of questions that would lead the student to the truth. The monks of various religions use meditation to get to that point of enlightenment. The list goes on and on. It's true that the person might never realize their potential until they are forced by either circumstance (like the mother mentioned above) or through training to call upon that which resides within them, but it won't come out if it aint there to begin with. You can't get blood out of a turnip no matter how hard you squeeze. If you squeeze something and blood comes out, it's because the blood was already in there. The squeezing didn't create it, it just created the conditions for it to come out.

If it were the other way around, then a good instructor would be able to turn anyone into a top student. We know that this is not true. Even the best instructor is limited by the potential of his pupil. All he can do is develop what is already there. He can't make you into a fighter, but he can draw out the fighter within and make him better.
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
Royal Hawaiian Lua - ETS PA / Olohe Eli

Offline NYKaju

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2008, 10:04:16 AM »
No thanks

For an extra .10¢ I can upgrade that heachache to include a large fries and Coke ;)
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2008, 11:00:31 AM »
Couple chicken breasts and a bottle of water and I'm in....
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Offline Wado

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2008, 03:13:32 PM »
Nature vs Nurture?

I believe circumstance brings out the nature in people, whether that be instinct or through chemistry such as the affects of adrenaline.  I believe nurture helps people cope with and suppress our nature.

We as humans in society are constantly being told how to act and what to do.  We are conditioned to "fit in" with what place or role we have in society.  In martial arts we are told how to punch, how to stand, how to breath...

Sure you can force a person into a life or death circumstance, and this can bring out their true nature.  However, if they survive that situation, then how they deal with it after the fact is very important.  Nurture is what helps them cope with what happened and gives them the tools to move forward from there.  Nurture is what shields them from bad circumstances. 

Nurture and nature are in conflict with each other.  When circumstances bring out the nature in us, we often have an internal conflict... hesitate and not know what to do.  Our mind says one thing, but our body does something different.

Decisive action comes at those moments when nurture and nature are in agreement -- when there is a lack of internal conflict.

Through such things as hard, sincere training we put ourselves in circumstances that bring out the nature in us and this conflicts with our beliefs and nurture.  We try to find a balance where both nature and nurture can work together for a common purpose.

Some find this balance through compassion.  Some maybe find it because they aren't quite right in the head and they just don't care what happens to others. 

I don't know exactly the answer, but I feel sincere compassion is a virtue.
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2008, 08:44:26 PM »
Nature vs Nurture?

I believe circumstance brings out the nature in people, whether that be instinct or through chemistry such as the affects of adrenaline.  I believe nurture helps people cope with and suppress our nature.

This debate is pointless as nature and nurture have never been defined.  What are they?  Does nurture actually affect nature, as in depriving a brain of oxygen?
If an embryo is influenced by birth order, would that still be nature? 

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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2008, 08:54:47 PM »
Aloha Professor Scott,

I remember seeing Saving Private Ryan and I think it took me a couple of weeks to get back to normal.

Allow me to take the time to repectfully thank you for your service in Vietnam and I am sorry for the losses you experienced with your friends and fellow soldiers. My first mentors and teachers in the military were all vietnam veterans and I will always have the utmost of respect for yours and their service to this nation and the soldiers like me who came afterwards.

I had a few friends and fellow soldiers die in combat and I don't think that there is a week that goes by that I am not reminded somehow of them in some kind of way. Knowing them and honoring their memory has humbled me to this day and I am thankful everyday to have the opportunities in life that they never will.


Mahalo, Sir

Sifu Pat



Aloha,

I can relate to my Marine Crops days to a movie (Saving Private Ryan) that my wife and I attended.  The very first scene illustrated that the allied forces were landing on the beaches of Normandy.   I slouch down into my seat, my breading started to labor, and my uncontrollable hands trembled.  I was pumping too much blood and it affected my heart beat. I was reliving my combat days in Vietnam.  The film was so realistic that I actually was in a live combat fire fight.  My wife looked at me and said ‚Äúwhat wrong with you honey?‚Äù  I did not respond to her and we both left the theater.  Later I explain my some of my military experiences to my wife and the effect it had on me while watching the movie.  Another movie was ‚ÄúHamburger Hill and We Were Brothers‚Äô‚Äù.   During my recon days, 40+ of my fellow buddies were killed.  ‚ÄúSpecial Forces‚Äù combat veterans keep their experiences to them selves.  I do not talk to my wife and rarely say anything concerning my actual experiences in the military to anyone.  No matter what kind of training, everyone will react differently.  It is an experience that I will never forget.   

Respectfully       

Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
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Offline Wado

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2008, 09:13:44 PM »
Nature vs Nurture?

I believe circumstance brings out the nature in people, whether that be instinct or through chemistry such as the affects of adrenaline.  I believe nurture helps people cope with and suppress our nature.

This debate is pointless as nature and nurture have never been defined.  What are they?  Does nurture actually affect nature, as in depriving a brain of oxygen?
If an embryo is influenced by birth order, would that still be nature? 


Just because something isn't spelled out black and white doesn't make discussion about it pointless.  In Eastern thinking, mind, body, spirit are one.  Along this line, I will define nature as how we act from instinct... what is intuitive.  I define nurture as the higher-level of thinking/conditioning that attempts to understand and control our nature. 

As mind, body, spirit are one... so are nature, nurture one.  When they become separated (in conflict with each other)... that is what I was discussing. 

I'm not discussing how one impacts the other... it is clear to me that the influence each other.  There have been studies of how stress of the body can cause sickness of the mind, and how stress on the mind can cause sickness of the body.  Some people can be brain-washed to ignore their instincts.  People can be conditioned to ignore reason and act purely on instinct.  Chemicals can be put in the body to affect the mind and body.  Traumatizing experiences can bring memories so vivid they feel real to the body. 

W. Yamauchi
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Seattle, Washington

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2008, 09:16:33 PM »
What you say, sir, has much merit and makes alot of sense to me.

Mahalo,

Sifu Pat

Nature vs Nurture?

I believe circumstance brings out the nature in people, whether that be instinct or through chemistry such as the affects of adrenaline.  I believe nurture helps people cope with and suppress our nature.

This debate is pointless as nature and nurture have never been defined.  What are they?  Does nurture actually affect nature, as in depriving a brain of oxygen?
If an embryo is influenced by birth order, would that still be nature? 


Just because something isn't spelled out black and white doesn't make discussion about it pointless.  In Eastern thinking, mind, body, spirit are one.  Along this line, I will define nature as how we act from instinct... what is intuitive.  I define nurture as the higher-level of thinking/conditioning that attempts to understand and control our nature. 

As mind, body, spirit are one... so are nature, nurture one.  When they become separated (in conflict with each other)... that is what I was discussing. 

I'm not discussing how one impacts the other... it is clear to me that the influence each other.  There have been studies of how stress of the body can cause sickness of the mind, and how stress on the mind can cause sickness of the body.  Some people can be brain-washed to ignore their instincts.  People can be conditioned to ignore reason and act purely on instinct.  Chemicals can be put in the body to affect the mind and body.  Traumatizing experiences can bring memories so vivid they feel real to the body. 


Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2008, 09:30:18 PM »
Aloha,

I can relate to my Marine Crops days to a movie (Saving Private Ryan) that my wife and I attended.  The very first scene illustrated that the allied forces were landing on the beaches of Normandy.   I slouch down into my seat, my breading started to labor, and my uncontrollable hands trembled.  I was pumping too much blood and it affected my heart beat. I was reliving my combat days in Vietnam.  The film was so realistic that I actually was in a live combat fire fight.  My wife looked at me and said ‚Äúwhat wrong with you honey?‚Äù  I did not respond to her and we both left the theater.  Later I explain my some of my military experiences to my wife and the effect it had on me while watching the movie.  Another movie was ‚ÄúHamburger Hill and We Were Brothers‚Äô‚Äù.   During my recon days, 40+ of my fellow buddies were killed.  ‚ÄúSpecial Forces‚Äù combat veterans keep their experiences to them selves.  I do not talk to my wife and rarely say anything concerning my actual experiences in the military to anyone.  No matter what kind of training, everyone will react differently.  It is an experience that I will never forget.   

Respectfully       


Wow...

Thank you for sharing Professor.
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Ronin Martial Arts
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Offline Wado

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2008, 09:46:01 PM »
What you say, sir, has much merit and makes alot of sense to me.

Mahalo,

Sifu Pat


Thank you. 

I went through and still go through times of internal conflict.  One of the worse was dealing with "killer instinct."  I pulled my punches in a fight rather than take out a stunned opponent.  To overcome this conflict, I learned to change my mental state, like a switch that turns on or off.  I had to believe what I am doing is the right thing to do and not over think things.  After I did this, I found I was more compassionate and at the same time more brutal. 

I can only say with me, I don't know if it is more instinct or conditioning, but I do know that having internal conflict is what made me ill and I had to heal.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2008, 11:05:29 PM »
I haven't  made it to the wall yet, just haven't been ready for what I know will be a tough day.  Soon though.  God bless all our men and women serving our country today.  God bless all who have served.  And God bless all the families. 

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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2008, 09:41:48 AM »
Our troopers are stretched thin and they are getting overworked. I know Rangers here in Benning who are always back and forthe to Afghanastan and other places as well as soldiers from 3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division that have 3+ tours in Iraq. The prospect of new wars is unsettling and makes me wonder if tere is any end in site for this warring trend.

Sifu Pat

Aloha,

I visited the Vietnam Memorial in Washington D.C. while on a family vacation.
I wanted to pay honor to the fallen Marines, personal friends and the other 60 thousand who were killed or missing in action.  With the assistance of my family, I located my buddies, their names were inscribed on the marvel/granite walls.  In the middle of the walk way I sat down, weeping uncontrollable for the men and women that sacrifice their lives for the freedom of our country.  I feel for the lost of our men and women that are in Iraq and Afghanistan.  IMHO, another senseless conflict, with no resolve in the near future.

Respectfully
           

Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Your on your own
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2008, 09:52:16 AM »
There is a saying that goes "think-feel-behave" I happen to believe that our thoughts control everything. Everytime I loose control in even the simpilest of social situations it is because I fail to control my mind and feelings. I have learned that anything that controls me defeats me and this includes my mind. There are many things that go on in the unconscious that we are unaware of and feelings that creep in can also feed an uncontrolled mind. I think that one of the distinctions of a conscientious and effective martial artist is their ability to control their minds and emotions.

Sifu Pat

What you say, sir, has much merit and makes alot of sense to me.

Mahalo,

Sifu Pat


Thank you. 

I went through and still go through times of internal conflict.  One of the worse was dealing with "killer instinct."  I pulled my punches in a fight rather than take out a stunned opponent.  To overcome this conflict, I learned to change my mental state, like a switch that turns on or off.  I had to believe what I am doing is the right thing to do and not over think things.  After I did this, I found I was more compassionate and at the same time more brutal. 

I can only say with me, I don't know if it is more instinct or conditioning, but I do know that having internal conflict is what made me ill and I had to heal.
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
Royal Hawaiian Lua - ETS PA / Olohe Eli